Unlocking Yoga: Zaz Grumbar

https://headliner.ai/yoga-rough-cut-m4a

Uyi

Okay, so the mics are quite powerful, mhm, so we'll see if we like clicking or something. If we do, I might have to explain. Don't worry, there's a dog in a room here. Some heavy panting, that's what's happening.

Zaz

We should explain that. Maybe we should explain that at the beginning.

Uyi

Yes. If you are listening to his podcast, hopefully you are. There is a dog in a room. Your dog's. Cool. Indie.

Zaz

She is.

Uyi

How old is Indy?

Zaz

Indy's going to be one on Wednesday. Nearly one year old, but I don't know when she stops being a puppy.

Uyi

You've done some podcasts before, right?

Zaz

Yeah, but I've actually not done them in a studio. They've always been over the phone.

Uyi

I hate those ones. It's easier to do it. It's convenient, but you can't build a rapport. And then I did this course recently, I had to do it for work, this leadership, um, course. And so I had to attend a lot of meetings on Skype with like 60 people, and the whole idea is to network. How can you network on a tele screen? So I try to avoid recording when the person is not here. At some point I will have to do a remote one.

Zaz

Well, that said, it could be that a bit of a USP is that you're really almost celebrating local guests, local people, rather than the traditional thing. I'm going to reach out to the Americans and that's going to get me.

Uyi

Yeah, true. That is a USP. How old were you when you came to England?

Zaz

I was twelve and a half.

Uyi

Oh, wow.

Zaz

Okay.

Uyi

And so you went to school in the area?

Zaz

No. So basically just like a quick backtrack. I'm, um, m, a bit of a mishmash of all sorts of things. I was born in Switzerland, I spent three months living in France as a baby, then went to Trinidad and Tobago, lived in Trinidad, went to school there, and then we'll talk about it later. But we had a bit of an adventure, going to Tobago for a few years, back to Trinidad and then to the UK. Lived first of all, Labor Grove, like I said, and we were five of us in one room, um, above a friend flat, and we were only there for about, I think, two months. And then we moved to West Vincent, North London.

Uyi

Very good.

Zaz

And went to school there.

Uyi

Very different, very different area compared to the time. Basically, you're the third Trinidadian person I've had on the podcast. It's quite yeah. So I was like, oh, you said from Trinidad. I'm like, wow, I've had three Trinidado podcasts. Not intentionally.

Zaz

We tend to infiltrate.

Uyi

Yeah. So I was going to say that everybody has an idea of what yoga is. Everyone in their mind has an idea of, you know, yoga is some exercises, there's a bit of spirituality and there's a bit of, like, wellness involved in it.

Zaz

And you probably need to be really flexible.

Uyi

Some people are like, yeah, I can't do yoga enough.

Zaz

Yeah, it's common. Or it's boring, very slow.

Uyi

Exactly. Or it's not hard. Exactly. They haven't how would you describe yoga?

Zaz

Gosh, I think yoga is a holistic science. It is something that begins with the breath, it begins with an awareness of yourself, and it takes you on a journey where you connect back. It's like taking a map, and it's a pathway to coming back to the most powerful parts of yourself, the parts of greatest potential, the parts of greatest kindness, the parts of greatest compassion, and also exploring what you're capable of doing. So there are many, many different styles of yoga. Obviously. You've mentioned Vikram is one hatha is the original basic style of yoga. Visually, we see it as the physical movements. The physical movements, in fact, was created in order to always get the energy out of these young monks, these young army soldiers, to prepare them for long periods of sitting in meditation. So it's actually to move the energy around the body, and move the body to prepare you for being able to be in contemplation. So the movement, combined with an awareness of breath, as we do the movement, brings you into a space. If you are doing, uh, a yogic posture and you start thinking about, what am I going to have for dinner tonight? Then? Whether it's standing upright in Tadasana Mountain pose, whether it's a warrior pose, whether it's a handstand. If you start thinking about something else, then your body kind of goes a bit wobbly and you lose balance, you lose alignment, it goes you have to bring your awareness back completely to yourself in that moment. There's a big trend around mindfulness, and that's absolutely what yoga has been about for 40 years. It combines meditation techniques, it combines breath techniques, it combines physicality, it combines energy, it combines spirituality. All of those things rolled into one. And in its simplest form, yoga is about connection. The word yoga, you mentioned the Sutras by Patanjali, the sage Patanjali, and in the Yoga Sutras, Patanjali says there's a famous quote chitavrit in Rodaja yoga is the cessation of the fluctuations of the mind. That's the ultimate goal of yoga. And I can pretty much guarantee that if you are doing a posture that is complex and your mind starts worrying, that posture goes, and that's fine. We expect that we can't stop the mind from thinking, but we gently drive back and say, okay, let's come back in here, let's come back in here. And I think for some people, the idea of doing meditation or yoga is like, oh, um, man, that's so boring. Or I can't do that, I can't sit still for long enough. Like, yeah, I get that completely. But no one is saying that you can't think that you have to stop thinking about everything. You suddenly are aware that, OK, hang on. My mind is going off somewhere else. Let me m bring it back to my breath. Or an affirmation words that I'm repeating inwardly, or a movement that I'm doing repeatedly in a vinyasa or something and that's going to bring me back to myself. So that actually you take charge. So it's not the mind. And this weird thing in yoga as well is that there's a differentiation, there's a distinction with the eye. I am not my thoughts, I am not my body. If you amputate my arm, I'm still me. If I'm sleeping, I'm still me. So I am beyond my thoughts. If you can still the mind, you don't stop being you, but you stop letting the monkey mind, that chatter that's constantly going on behind you lead the way. You kind of take back control. Let's come back in. Let's just be focused on what we're doing right now. Whether that's the breath, whether that's the meditation, whether that's the movement. Let's just bring it back.

Uyi

Put a line down.

Zaz

Sorry, that was a line.

Uyi

That was a lot. So it's almost like it's trending a bit that people are thinking more about how they breathe, especially because of the mindfulness psychology and wellbeing, people are thinking about being mindful and they talk about breathing, which you're right. Yogis people who practice yoga have been doing this for thousands of years. Over 4000 yogis thousands of years old.

Zaz

Mhm basically, if you're doing the physical movements without an awareness of breath, you're just making funny shapes with your body, right? That's not yoga. The awareness of breath is crucial to yoga. That's why most teachers, myself included, will say inhale lift your arm of exhale and we'll talk with the breath. We're not just saying step forward, lift your arm, um, up, move this, do that. Every time a yoga teacher speaks to you, there tend to be either every instruction or every third instruction. They're mentioning the breath, they're constantly coming back to the breath. Because if you're not bringing that awareness of breath in, we've lost the yoga side. We're just doing funny movement.

Uyi

So the breath is the root of yoga?

Zaz

Uh, yes, absolutely. That's different to breath control. And she kind of like rewind because traditionally in yoga, there are eight branches. If you imagine a tree and there are eight branches that spring off, the physical side is just one. You have another seven that comprise yoga. So yoga is more than just a physical side, but that's what we tend to see. And as a typical Western, uh, colonialist appropriation tactic, we tend to just focus on only the physical. But actually it involves a certain morality, ways of being in the world, ways of interacting with yourself, with other people. It involves focus, it involves meditation, it involves breath work, it involves coming into a higher state of being. So it's lots of different things actually. And then the physical practice number eight. So it's all of those things encapsulated and one thing that I'm very aware of is that I didn't sign up to teach a stretch class. And I'm sure that a lot of people come to classes not wanting particularly the spirituality. And that's fine. I'm never going to push that onto somebody. I think that's horrible. And people sort of ramp things down your throat. But this is an ancient practice with its roots in spirituality and awareness and mindfulness. One of the things that I often have talked about was that people come to yoga a bit like coming into a messy room. Imagine you're at home and there's a room, the spare room is a real tip, and you, uh, got to go and sort that out that's people coming into you. I'm going to go in and sort it out. Your messy room might be your tight hamstrings, your lower back. Your messy room might be, god, I just need calm and rest. My brain is going crazy. Your messy room could be any of those things. But when you come in and you start tidying up your messy room, you start doing a yoga practice, right? That's the tidying upside. And as you tidy up your messy room, you go, oh, look, look under here. There's a thing that I didn't know I had. And you start discovering things about yourself that you didn't know, apart from your hamstrings maybe getting a little bit longer. You might go, oh, I didn't realize I could do this. I didn't realize this was available to me. I didn't realize I could find this calm by breathing in this way. I didn't realize that I could move my body in this way. And for me, I'm a dynamic teacher. I teach a dynamic style. What I love that goes back to maybe my Ayurvedic dosha. I'm very fire and air, moving around a lot. And one of the things I think is that when I'm teaching people to do an arm, um, balance or an inversion going upside down, it's not just about whether you can do it. It's not about being strong or flexible. For me, if you suddenly are able to do this thing that you didn't think you could do, whether that's touch your toes or do a handstand, whatever it is, maybe there's a little part of you that's going to leave that yoga studio going, what else is there in my life that I can do? What other possibilities are open to me? Maybe there's a whole load of other stuff that I could do. Not just physically, but maybe I could do all sorts of things. And I've seen people go on these fantastic journeys, really just heart melting. I taught a program over a month. At the end of it, she came to me and she's like, dad, I've been addicted to these pills for five years, and I've flushed them down the toilet. I'm not taking them anymore because I've realized that I'm enough. I don't need that. That's the win for me. It's not whether or not she can hold a headstand, I don't care about that. I mean, it's great that she can now. It's great that she can, but it's that win of, uh, I am enough. Like, yes, that's what we want.

Uyi

So, like you said in the beginning, it's a journey. Yeah, it's a journey of discovering yourself, ultimately coming back, coming back to who you are. Let's talk about the schools then. What are the main schools and what's the differences between the schools?

Zaz

Gosh, there are so many now. There's Shivananda Yoga. There's Crippled Yoga. There's Mandala. There's Forest Yoga. There's Rocket Yoga. Uh, there's so many different styles. I'd say that Hatha yoga is probably your gentlest. Yin yoga is also relatively new in terms of being popularized as a style. And Yin yoga is where you hold postures for three to five minutes. And, um, they tend to be feeted postures or reclined postures. You're not going to be standing up in tree pose for five minutes. That would just be brutal. But instead you'll be lying down. You might be back then with a support underneath you. They use a lot of props. There's no physical adjusts. So Yin yoga is, I think, wonderful for anyone who feels like their mind is racing a lot, and they just need something super gentle and to almost feel closeted and looked after in that kind of way, or restorative yoga, that is megagental. So if you have a lot of injuries, that might be a nice place to start and then kind of going on up the scale, then you have jiva. Mukti is very spiritual. Kundalini yoga, very, very spiritual. A lot of chanting. Vinyasa yoga is hugely, hugely popular. That span off of Ashtanga yoga. And Ashtanga yoga has levels within it. So level one, ashtanga. Level two, ashtanga up to, I think, level 406. And normally, if you're practicing Ashtanga yoga in a Maisor, for example, which is a selfpractice, you don't go on to the postures that are in Level Two until you have completely done Level One and so on.

Uyi

Who decides that, uh, you're teacher, or.

Zaz

If you're practicing on your own and you're a dedicated hashtagi, then you would go through those specific postures. And when you feel those postures I'm comfortable with, then you would move on. Vinyasa, uh, teachers, we kind of go, I'm going to borrow a little level three and level one, and level Two, and mix them all up together and go, here you go, here's the dish. Something like Forest yoga was created, in relative terms, relatively recently by Anna Forest. That's quite a fiery kind of yoga, but she created it and used it as a healing kind of yoga. So this is almost like tough love, but this is fiery. This is your holding postures. There's lots of inversions, there's lots of strength work. It's a very powerful form, but it's deeply transformative. Rocket is a lot of fun. And that's created, I believe, by Larry Schultz. That's a lot of arm balances inversions. And there are different rocket practices, whether it's for hip opening, for back bends, and so on. But that's kind of quite a snappy, dynamic style. Bikram is 26 postures that were put in that order by bikram himself to be done in a room at 42 degrees. The practice of hot yoga that you'll see now, they tend to call it classic hot because anyone who had a victim studio had to pay a commission to victim himself. And then once, obviously, he lost his lawsuit. Many reasons.

Uyi

Many reasons.

Zaz

Great documentary on a documentary on Netflix. Yes, it's pretty hairy, but all the studios that we're paying him realize we don't have to do that anymore because we'll just call it classic and still do the 26 postures. But you do those specific postures in that order, and that's it. Um, vinyasa yoga will be based on what your instructor takes and sequences and according to the theme that they sequence. And so that might be a theme based on chakras or energy centers. It could be a theme based on, for instance, this week I'm talking a lot about Equanimity in classes. It could be based on seasonality. It could be based on the elements. There are hundreds of different themes that it could be based on. Vinyasa will be fluid, continuously moving, which is what you practice with me at a hotpot. That's another variety of yoga. I think that what's important is to experiment, to dip in, and rather than go, I've tried this, I don't like yoga. Yoga is not for me. Well, maybe it was that style of yoga wasn't your vibe. Ianga yoga, ayenga, is very specific to the posture. So you're going to go to an Ienga class and you're probably going to do five to eight poses in an hour, hour and a half. And that's it. Because it's very much about the detail of the pose. So unlike in yoga, where you're holding the pose for a long time for the benefit of having that deep fascia release with Aynga, it's about absolutely getting the tiniest details correct for that posture. I don't do well with keeping still postures myself. That's just not my energy. And also, I went to an Ayanka class a few times and asked the instructor at one point, am I doing this right? He's like, you could do it for 100 years, you'd never get it right. And now I understand what he meant. Maybe a better way to put it is that you could do that for 100 years and you're always going to find something else, something new, something different, but the time, you're never going to get it right. I was like, I'm not coming back. What's the point?

Uyi

Yes, it's like you're aiming for perfection, but it's a journey to perfection. But he said it in the wrong way.

Zaz

But also perfection is relative. What is right for my body is not necessarily going to be right for all of my students bodies. And I have to respect that. I think as a teacher, if you don't respect your students bodies, then you're not adhering to. I mentioned the eight limbs of yoga. Two of them are the yamas and nyamus. Have you heard of that before? No. So the yamas and niyamas are ethical ways of being. Basically, you have five yamas and five nyamas in the yamas. One of them is called Ahimsa, and Ahimsa means nonharm. So if you're interested in the yamas and niyamas, I've done a blog post on it and I've also taught a whole series of classes and a workshop on how to include yamas and nyamas, um, in your teaching, in your practice. Ahimsa means nonviolence. And apart from obviously not slapping people, it also means how you speak to people. It also means how you speak to yourself and how you treat yourself. Are you being violent towards yourself? That changed everything for me. And it comes into my teaching massively, because if I'm asking my students to do something and their physicality, their skeleton is built in a different way to mine and they cannot do something and I'm forcing it, or I'm going over to them to adjust them and pushing their body, then I am massively disrespecting you and I am harming you. That is not okay. And I'm harming you. Not just physically harming you, but I'm also making you feel bad about yourself because I'm going, this isn't right. You're not doing it right. And there are still some teachers out there, some very popular teachers actually, in London, who will really push and go like, right, you're not getting it right. Well, you know, maybe this is not right for this person at this point in time. Also, maybe on that day, maybe I can physically put my leg behind my head, but maybe that's not what I want. Maybe that's not what I need today. Maybe today I just need child's posemen and that's what I need. It should be okay to do that. I had a student come into class a couple of weeks ago and he did a couple of the postures and then he lay down in Shavasana for the next 45 minutes of an hour's class. I'm like, Good, that's what you need. Everything we say as teachers, they're suggestions. They're not do or die. You have to do this. You don't have to do any of it. You could sit down and just go, I'm, um, taking an hour to sit and be with my thoughts and that's totally fine. If you want to move your body, I'm m going to give you suggestions on ways to move your body. But your yoga is your yoga. It's yours. I'm just here to facilitate it and hold a space.

Uyi

M I come in from my side of teaching people. My aim is to allow them to realize their potential.

Zaz

I'm clapping lightly here. I'm clapping lightly, right? That's totally what I agree with.

Uyi

Yes. I do think that we, as humans, need a push, not shove. Like shoving someone through a door is not the nicest thing. Not the best way for people to learn. But I think we limit ourselves. How do you gauge with your students when this is a time where you need to go a bit further?

Zaz

Now it's really hard because I'm not in their head. I don't know what kind of day they've had, uh, at the beginning of a class, when I'll say, do you have any injuries? Let me know. In seven years of teaching, I've only once had somebody put their hand up and say, I have a broken heart.

Uyi

Oh, really?

Zaz

Yeah, because that's important. People will go, oh, I've got a dicky knee, or my back hurts, or my wrist is a bit weak. That's part of it. And that's why when I'm saying that where I can put my foot behind my head, that might not be what my energy needs, where my heart is. What does my heart need? Sometimes you have to go, let's put the ego aside. In terms of how can I tell when someone is ready or not? I observe every single student as much as I can during the entire practice. If I see someone who is fighting and struggling and wobbling, there will be times where I will gently come down and say, put your knee on the ground, dude. It's okay. It's all right. And there'll be someone else. When they do something, I'm, um, like, okay, I'm just going to help you without them knowing. Like, Yep, I've got you in a handstand. You're doing that today because I can feel that you're ready. It's a feeling. And if there's any resistance, because the big resistor, uh, really is fear. And there's a difference when you move through something between going with intention and going with fear. And as soon as you feel that someone is fearful, then, like, that's when you're not ready. And that's fine. We're going to hold off and make sure you feel safe, because we can't do anything if you do not feel safe. And on the other hand, if you are fighting between the ego and the body, then both of you are going to lose. Because if the ego loses and the body wins, then you've lost because the ego is lost. And if the ego wins and the body loses, then you're injured. We can't have a fight between the two.

Uyi

Very valid points. Did you ever read a book called June?

Zaz

No. Great.

Uyi

But they made a movie. You probably like it. Um, it's very science fiction, but it's got all the spirituality in it. And one of the things that the character says, because there is a religious order, and it's all about the mind. And one of the things they say is, I must not fear, because fear is the mind killer, but not that I must not be afraid, but I must not succumb to my fears, basically. And that's a good point. Fear can be the biggest enemy because it blocks you from doing a lot of things. Because I'm afraid, you know, different ways, different types of fear. Fear of embarrassment, fear of failure, fear.

Zaz

Of physically hurting yourself.

Uyi

Legitimate fear.

Zaz

Legitimate fear.

Uyi

Absolutely. I do feel it's important to fail, of course, because then you're learning 100%.

Zaz

And maybe that's why a little bit on purpose, slightly cheekily, I will put in poses there where I know people are going to wobble and fall over, and it's all right. And I want us to normalize that, and I want us to be aware. What is the conversation that's going on in my mind when I'm wobbling all over the place? When I've got you standing on one leg with the other leg wrapped around, and I tell you to go up on your tiptoes and you'll look at me like, she's crazy. What's the conversation? Sometimes the conversation is like, oh, I've lost it, darn it. I'm, um rubbish. I'm crap. Or is it like, uh, I fell over? OK, well, maybe next time if I shift my weight this way, okay, I'm going to learn something. Can we allow ourselves to feel? Because if we don't allow ourselves to fail, it means we're never trying anything new, and it's like walking around the block for the rest of your life because you're too afraid to cross the street.

Uyi

Yes.

Zaz

Having that conversation and that awareness, because that's where Equanimity comes in. It's being able to observe what's coming up. My emotions are coming up. I'm not going to never be angry or never be sad or never be frustrated, but can I take a step back? Can I watch that rise of emotion come up and go, okay, I see you. That's how you're reacting. And often at the start of the class, I'll say, guys, let's talk to yourself during this entire class as though you were your best, best friend. And sometimes when you're talking to your best friend, you'll go, come on, you can do better than that. Come on, you're not even trying. Come on, have a go.

Uyi

Yeah.

Zaz

And sometimes you'll see to your best friend, yo, chill out. It's all right. Tone it down.

Uyi

People in general, I think, are very good at giving other people advice, but they're not very good at, uh, giving themselves advice. If your friend asks you, yes, it happens, right? People say, oh, you give really good advice. And I'm like, yeah, I can give someone good advice. But then sometimes I don't do what's in the best interest for me. Like when you talked about you're being harmful to yourself, whether you know it or maybe you don't know it, and I think a lot of people do know it because it's hard to be a perfect human.

Zaz

Doing the good things is hard.

Uyi

It's hard.

Zaz

Doing the good things is hard.

Uyi

It's very easy to do. Things aren't good. Yeah, it's hard. In my mind, perfection is something that is unattainable because just when you think I've got there, it's a little bit further from your read.

Zaz

But I think that that's the thing, isn't it? Words like perfection, being successful, even having balance in our lives, equanimity, all of those things, they're not a destination. It's not a point on the map. M like, right, I've got them, I'm going to set up camp, I've got to build my house. I'm good, I'm here, I'm forever going to be successful. It's not a destination if you do this exercise. It's kind of funny if you stand on one leg and maybe reach down and hold your ankle and lift up 1ft and just see what happens. You'll feel your ankle twitching and moving as ah, all the muscles and joints in your foot recalibrate and calibrate and calibrate to find balance constantly. And it's a constant finding of balance. You're not just, hey, I've arrived in balance. You're fighting all the time. You're fighting. You do a handstand, you are fighting to hold it the entire time. I mean, yes, I can be in a headstand and foreign, I can be chatting away to you, I can look around and talk to you, but my fingers are working, my body is working to keep me there. You know when you get to a place in your life where you're successful and that's a whole other story because how does one define success anyway? Let's get out of the whole socially defined success thing. How do you really define success? And again, it's a constant ebb and flow, but you want it to be a gentle ebb and flow, not a fight. You say sturh and suka and stira, meaning that which is hard, that which is solid, that which has effort in it. And suka, meaning that which is delicious, sweet, soft. And the balance of stir and sukha is what we want in our lives and in our physical yoga practice, in our meditation practice. We want that combination, that balance of effort and ease, of strength and grace so that it's not a kind of aggressive fighting. It's a being there, being solid and accepting.

Uyi

I think people often think about the destination rather than the journey. Like the destination is to be successful, the destination is to reach something. Whereas actually it's about the journey and the journey is constant, which is an analogy for life, right? It's a constant journey through life. You haven't arrived at life exactly unless you're Buddha like, I've arrived now. But sometimes people lose sight of that because they're thinking about I want to get there.

Zaz

But it's like you arrive there and then you realize that the horizon has moved again, which it has, which it continually does.

Uyi

It. Continue does.

Zaz

And that's what happens, is they're not an end point. And rather than seeing that as a negative, that's actually the wonderful exciting thing about being human. When someone falls, it's not exciting because you've got like, I've still got something else to learn. I'm still growing, I'm still learning, I'm still unfurling as a human being. If I'm like, yeah, I know how to do this. I've read all the books in the library. I know everything is like, how boring would your life be? You want to continually grow. And if you make a mistake oh, so if I've made a mistake, that means I still got something to learn.

Uyi

Exactly. Superficially. When people see yoga, they tend to think of lots of women, which there are lots of women, white women. Lots of white women. Yeah. It's funny because it seems like it's an affluent activity.

Zaz

Tell me about it.

Uyi

Which is strange, because the roots are far from that far. And the roots of the vehicle was actually was a practice that was mainly practiced by men in India right. And then spread across Asia.

Zaz

Yeah, they were wearing loincross. They weren't wearing the lemon.

Uyi

Right. But then what happened in the west that it shifted over, and now it's a, uh, practice that mainly women practiced.

Zaz

Well, I think that for starters, there's a physicality because there's a flexibility aspect. And that probably appeals a lot to women, because in a really generalized way, women tend to be more flexible than men, certainly in youth. And when having a child, you have the hormone relaxing in your body, which eventually EFTs away. But generally speaking, women tend to be more flexible than men, so it probably attracts more women. For that reason, I would say men tend to err towards physical endeavors that, uh, have more adrenaline. Lots of fast rewards, as m well, dopamine hit the quick, hit the winning points, team things for keeping in your tribe as well. And I think the feeling of working hard, that really hardworking, whether you're running a marathon or you're weightlifting, it's like, it's the testosterone, basically. And I think that that is also why there are more men who practice hot yoga than I've seen anywhere else.

Uyi

Than the other schools of yoga.

Zaz

More so I haven't done an official count or something like rocket or Forest, where there's all the arm balances and the strengthbased. Yoga practices, um, that tends to be more popular for men not than women. But then the other styles that draws people to yoga, I think you don't even have goat yoga. You can do yoga with goats. There's a movement called broga, which is yoga for the brothers, yoga for men.

Uyi

Really?

Zaz

Yeah.

Uyi

Wow. There's broker.

Zaz

Absolutely right. Also, because then there's also the thing where a lot of men might not feel like, oh, I don't even want to go into a studio where there's loads of women in their loot, ours and all doing everything so well, and here I am, Billy, I'm stretched, struggling, and then I'm looking at someone's bum and thinking, that's a nice bum. And then I feel bad. I'm thinking that whatever or feeling uncomfortable, there's a whole load of reasons it has become predominantly female. There's a lot of men who practice it and who are phenomenal practitioners as well, because imagine if you went to.

Uyi

India, you'd probably still see a lot of men. More men than women.

Zaz

Yes.

Uyi

Is it a Western thing? Because when I think of yoga masters, I think of a man. There are female yoga masters? I'm saying they are, but when I think in my mind of a yoga master, I think of a man. But when I look at most of the practitioners, I see women, or I think of women as well.

Zaz

Yes, but I think when there are people with their disposable income, what are they going to choose to spend it on? Yeah, they're going to probably go to the gym, they're going to do certain sports. It's a question of choice. And what are your priorities? Saying that I have private clients, most of my private clients are men. One of my clients is like, I would never do this in a room full of people.

Uyi

Because they're selfconscious. Yeah, right.

Zaz

Yeah, absolutely. Because there is this thing of how do I look? Whereas I think a lot of women like and there are a lot of women, definitely, who do care, that they might look silly, but there's also a lot of people like, I don't care, I'm just going to go ahead and do it. So I think it depends on your mindset. It depends on affluence. But I think that it really should be available to everybody. And it kind of breaks my heart when people say they go into certain yoga spaces and don't feel welcome. That really breaks my heart. And I think there is a lot about representation going to a yoga studio where you see a mixture not only of students, but also of teachers, because then you go, right. So this is not just a place where it's being taught by people from one section of the diaspora. This is actually a little bit broader. And also that then is reflected in someone's context for the teaching, because yoga teaching isn't just about the physicality and what is the context of their brain. Does that person understand me? Can I resonate with that person? As I mentioned much earlier, if you do a yoga class and you think, I didn't really like yoga, then you want to come back to not only a different style, but also maybe a different teacher would be good. Maybe you want to find the teacher that resonates with you.

Uyi

That's a completely valid point. People join gyms and they don't like the gym, but maybe it's just that gym. Right.

Zaz

You never go to a gym ever again.

Uyi

I can't work out because I went once and the gym was horrible or the PT wasn't very nice.

Zaz

It's quite convenient thing to say, isn't it? So I'm never going to get it.

Uyi

I'm never going again. But yeah, I think you do have to find the right school and the right teacher and I think representation is massively important. You're 100% right. You kind of see a certain demographic.

Zaz

Yeah.

Uyi

And that's not reality. So what was your yoga journey?

Zaz

In my early twenty s and I'm in my late forty s now, I was more of a gym bunny. So did all the workouts, did the dynamic cardio classes, running, et cetera. And one, um, day I was just crossing the road, I'm going to get something from my house, from a bus stop. Looked one way, so the car stopped me and I looked the other way for the oncoming traffic and a motorcycle over to the car. That stopped me and wiped me out, basically. It was quite a surreal experience, actually, because I felt like angels had just picked me up and put me down on the floor. I just think I'm down, but I had twisted vertebrae, which I still have now, twisted villey in my spine, which meant I had a lot of pain in my neck and I would get a lot of trap nerve and I would be bedridden for a couple of days until the osteopathic would get to me and sort me out. And this went on for like two years and I was so down, getting so depressed, and coincidentally then during that period, got together with somebody and then had a really, uh, break up, whatever. And I was in major depression, physically, feeling awful, afraid to run, afraid to move, in case that triggered my neck again. It could be m something as simple as putting my hair up and my neck will go even now. And I also was in the midst of an eating disorder and a friend said, let's try and try this trendy new thing called yoga. It was just getting quite fashionable in London. And off we went to Clapham and went to the yogaloft. And literally the moment that teachers, like right now, sitting down, bring your attention to your breath, allow everything to soften. I felt my whole body melt and I just felt like, I am, uh, home. Uh, I'm home. And there was no proving anything to anybody. There's no, you have to do this, you have to be better than anybody. None of that. We moved through the whole sequence at the end shavasana. I was in such a deep shavasana that when I opened my eyes and looked around, everybody had rolled up their mat. They were at the other end of the hole having tea and biscuits. I was the only person just lying there. But I had gone in so deeply to myself and I was like, this is amazing. I need to do more of whatever this thing that just happened is, I need to do more of this thing. And actually, it was that awareness of breath and awareness of my body that was like a reminder, come back to yourselves as comeback. And I started again breathing and being aware of myself in my daily life. And through the practice of a Kim staff that transformed things for me hugely, in that I, uh, was able to recognize that what I was doing to myself with my eating disorder was so, uh, harmful to my body that I was under seven stone. The doctors were making noises at me about putting me in somewhere, and I was like, you're just harming yourself. Why are you doing that? You have to be kind. Stop defending yourself. So I started going to yoga three or four times a week at the life center in Nottinghill. And, um, it was like an anchor. It was like, just come back to it. Just keep coming back. Just keep coming back. And I kept doing it and kept doing it. And then my career was changing, and I was in marketing for beauty brands and fashion brands. And then life got busy. And when I had my first child, I was pregnant. And my husband was like, you should really just do some yoga. Why don't you do some yoga? And I went to yoga. This is what was missing. I had felt that rise of anxiety almost coming back to me that I had before. And as soon as I got back on the map, I was like, uh, it's a bit like taking your medication. You just feel better if you do it. Just take the medication, do the thing you need to do to feel better. And I went back to doing my practice that was hard to balance. I remember getting so frustrated and saying, if I go and do a yoga practice, then I either get to see the kids or I do yoga. So I'm working, Mum. I hardly get to see them at all. I can't sacrifice that time to go and do yoga. My husband's like, but you really, really need to do yoga. You'll be a nicer person if you go and do yoga. My fine uncle. Once a week, maybe. And I went. Having a space where you can breathe is so powerful. It's so necessary. We live in this world that has us on constant running, especially these cities. Constant running, constant doing. Doing rather than a human being or a human doing.

Uyi

Yeah.

Zaz

You know, and just having that time to breathe and connect back to myself. Incredibly valuable. Yeah. So I continue practicing, and it's been, what, like 23 years, 24 years of practice, roughly. A few stops and starts. I was working for Burberry, and I realized that I was seeing my kids for an hour, 35 a week. It's because of my hours. And the nanny was earning more than the mortgage. She was pretty much bringing up the kids. I would get home and they'd already be in bed. I would leave before they woke up and was like, this is not working. So I stopped and I was like, what are you going to do? And I thought, I don't know. I was like, well, maybe I suppose I could give yoga. And my yoga teacher had been saying to me for ages, you should train to be a teacher. And I was always like, I am not at your level. I am so respectful of my teachers, I could not possibly stand on the mat and do what you do and hold that space for people. I can't do that. And one day she turned around to me and she's like, is that a used saying that I don't know my job? I'm telling you. You're ready? Are you telling me I don't know what I'm doing? Okay, well, if you're going to put it like that so I started looking at different yoga courses. And a lot of them were, uh, twelve week courses, all 200 hours courses to become a yoga teacher. And I thought, I can't really do that because my husband's working all week. I can't go here's the kids for twelve weekends straight. That's not cool. So I found a course I could do for a year. And again, rightly or wrongly, I've never been a saver. I'm not great at saving. So when I was accepted onto my yoga teacher training course and these courses, people may not realize, but yoga teachers invest a huge amount of money. Your beginning course is around four grand, three to four grand. And then you do constant courses yearly to keep improving, to make the payment. And I put the phone down, going, Yay. Crap. How am m I going to afford this? Oh my God. But when you make a commitment to something, the universe listens to you. And there's a wonderful quote that says, when you commit to something, the universe puts in your way all manner of opportunities that would not necessarily have arisen unless you make that commitment. So I said yes, I'm going to do it. I said on the phone, Yep, I'm in. Put the phone down. Now, how am I going to afford this? And I'm not kidding. Less than two minutes, about 90 seconds later, the postman dropped some letters through the letterbox. I went, one of those nasty looking brown envelopes that's always going to be bad news. And I picked it up and I opened it up and it's from HMRC. And I open it up and it was a tax rebate wow, for £4000.

Uyi

Just what you need.

Zaz

Just what I needed.

Uyi

And I was like, universal, isn't it?

Zaz

Thank you, God. You want me to be a yoga teacher? I'm um, here for the ride. Okay. So that was my journey.

Uyi

And here you are today.

Zaz

Yeah, I am. Yeah.

Uyi

Why is it so expensive? To become a yoga teacher, because there's a lot of Vedic roots, mhm, and also a lot of Buddhist connections of Buddhism came from the Vedas and from Sanskrit. Right. And it's all about letting go of materials. But then, at the same time, it's a lot of investment.

Zaz

A lot of investment to go and practice yoga. Too much heat.

Uyi

But then the whole concept of being not materialistic detachment is mortality than monetary things.

Zaz

Okay, I'm going to put this a different way. Those sages and gurus and teachers in those societies, they're looked after by their communities, right?

Uyi

Yes.

Zaz

They are given a home.

Uyi

Yes.

Zaz

They are given food.

Uyi

Yes.

Zaz

They can live in this society. Can you hear me?

Uyi

Yes.

Zaz

So, in fact, the money that a student pays for their teacher, or the money that as a student of yoga, I would pay to learn to be a teacher, it's an energy exchange. We look at it as material. Uh, and it's a lot, but maybe providing somebody with a house is a lot. It's a different energetic exchange. I'm here in this Western society, and I need to be able to pay my mortgage. I need to be able to buy food for my kids. Nobody is giving that to me. That's why yoga teacher training cost what they cost, so that the people who are offering them and sharing this knowledge, they can therefore pay their rent and their mortgage and their food. It's an energetic exchange. So I think when we start to look at things differently, because it's about nonattachment. Nonattachment was one of the yamas and yamas, and how do we come to that? But we also have to be able to live and be comfortable living. Not excessively, necessarily, but that's all relative. What you see as absolutely necessary in your life might not be what I see as absolutely necessary in my life. Maybe it's not absolutely necessary to have a dog. Right. We both have one. That's a luxury.

Uyi

Yes.

Zaz

Yeah. We do have to pay for yoga. But once you've done a yoga class or done a yoga teacher training, I've never come out of it going, well, that was a waste of money. That was crap. Why did I bother doing that? I've come out maybe feeling different things from different teachers. There's been only one teacher that's come out feeling not good about myself. But overall, the experience of doing that, there have been people who come up regretting it. But I think that that is because they are so fighting with their ego that they're like, that was awful. I couldn't do any of it.

Uyi

Well.

Zaz

When the teacher said, bend your knees to touch your hands to the ground, did you bend your knees? No, I refuse to bend my knees. I am not weak. Use a prop, use a block. No, I refuse. Come on, why won't you do that?

Uyi

That's the power of the ego.

Zaz

It's the ego. And so you come out thinking, I'm rubbish at this, I'm not doing it. People do it to me in my life, will say, like, I'm not doing yoga because I will fall over. I'm, uh, not doing yoga because I will be silly, I'm too tall, I'm silly, I can't do this. Well, that's because you're too concerned with your ego. And that's fine if that's where you are in your life right now.

Uyi

That is a huge battle. One thing I wanted to talk about, it's an observation from my personal experience. There is a community in yoga. There is obviously a community. People invest in it, they evaluate it. They go on retreats and stuff. There's that relationship between the teacher, uh, and the student and the master and the disciple. But then sometimes I look at it and I feel like it feels kind of lonely because you're in this room and you're kind of told, don't talk to anyone. Think about yourself and do it on your own, but you're in a room full of people. Is that a valid point?

Zaz

Yeah, totally valid point. Of course, any perspective that you have is valid. We are all entitled to our perspective. It's totally valid.

Uyi

We talk about it.

Zaz

Yeah, totally valid. Um, it's really interesting when you do a yoga class and you are all breathing together, you are inhaling and exhaling. And when you do an entire class and you feel that rise and fall, there is that connective energy between a group of people that is just beautiful. You have all gone through the same thing. You have all suffered through boat poses and chair pose, right? Yeah. You have all gone through this experience. There can be a bond created there if we're willing and open to it. Prepandemic. I would often do sequences where I would have people touch each other, hold each other, because, uh, yoga means to connect. So it's okay to reach out and touch someone. On retreats or other yoga studios that I might teach at will do things we'll do, I don't know, maybe a warrior. Three, leaning forward, the leg is out. Open your arms and hold onto each other. And you're holding on to that person for stability, to steady yourself, but also to study them. That balance of siren, suka, uh, that effort and grace that you're holding somebody and you're being supported by them, and you're connecting to that person. I'll do also things where I have people come and sit back to back to do practices together. So there's definitely a connection. And then you come out of the studio. Maybe the moment that you're perhaps seeing is very solitary. Definitely you come out of the studio and it's like, oh, uh, we just did that together. We all had this amazing experience together. And I think there's that little moment of connection of what you all experienced at that point in time. It's really beautiful. You go to church and it's an individual experience, but it's a collective experience as well. You're not sitting having a chat altogether, but it's what happens afterwards is you've all had that experience, you've all shared it. And I'm not trying to compare the spirituality of church to yoga at all. One thing though, you mentioned the relationship between the yoga teacher and the student, the disciple and mentor. I really back away from that in a big way. Um, why is that? Because I think that there's a danger.

Uyi

With the guru principle in like idolatry idol worshiping or looking up to someone?

Zaz

No, I think that it can be disempowering for the student because I think that it gives away your power to the teacher, basically. And while there's a learning from the teacher, there can be a real danger, as seen in the book from documentary of people just going ahead and blindly doing whatever the teacher tells them. Ah, and we have to be so aware as teachers. I'll give you two examples. I had a student and uh, when I said, have you got any injuries? And somebody said yes. And I said, what is it? It's my knee. And they OK. Great thing. And I, ah was like I was about to walk away and carry on teaching the class. She wanted to continue telling me what happened to her knee. I was like, okay, this is the longest story and I can tell this is not really about your knee at all. It's about something else, but let's go with it. And I was in a studio and I realized the style of yoga the teacher was doing. I didn't want to do it, so I said to the teacher, sorry, I want to leave. This is the student telling me. And the teacher said, no, we leave my class. And so I stayed. And then that's why I got injured. And I'm like, okay, so number one, you're an adult, the door was unlocked, you didn't have to stay. Number two, the teacher did not injure your knee. You did something during the class. You were not listening to your body and therefore you injured your knee. And you have to take ownership of that. You can't just say, oh, this is my master, I'm the disciple, I will just blindly do. I think it's important that people feel empowered to be able to say what they are comfortable and not comfortable with. In a yoga class, the teacher will come around and maybe give you a little assist, have their hands on you, sort of help you lengthen a little bit or turn your toes a little bit or whatever it is. And at the beginning of each class we'll say, are you okay to be touched? Some people remember to ask it, some people don't. But actually saying to people, are you happy to be touched? Is really important because it's so vital that people understand that at all times, at any time you have personal agency to decide who touches you when they touch you, even if you are happy for them to touch you. Last week, this week, I'm not feeling it. And it's okay for you to say that and being empowered and empowering people to say that. So now, if somebody is on the tube and can you just stand back a little bit? Like, okay, I'm going to honor your space, dude, that's fine. If you're not comfortable, I'm going to.

Uyi

Step in fact, I see now before the pandemic, um, to get onto the tube and every seat would be full, right?

Zaz

Yeah.

Uyi

And now we haven't gone back to normal. Fun enough, there are some seats free, but people don't want to sit there because they feel like I'm sitting too close.

Zaz

I'm sitting too close to somebody.

Uyi

Yeah. Uh, I bought this children's book for first of my older daughter, but now, um, my younger kids will read it. And it's called Myles is the boss of his body. And it's all about this boy who it's his birthday and everyone in his family is hugging him and rubbing his hair and come and get a cuddle. And he's getting more and more frustrated as it goes along. And then towards the end, he goes, can everybody stop? Right? I don't want to be hugged or squeezed. And then he kind of goes into his bedroom. But then he feels bad. He feels like, oh, you know, should I said that? Because they're my family, right? Like, they only had good intentions. And his mum comes in and she says, no, you're right. You're the boss of your body. It's nothing wrong with you saying that you don't feel comfortable with this. And it's like an important message. When I was a kid, you don't get that message.

Zaz

No, you don't. And another example, I have some friends who were on the process of adoption. And as part of it, they did this exercise where there were twelve parents, twelve couples who wanted to adopt, all doing this course. And there was a course leader, and the course leader had a flip chart. And she said, right, everybody, what do you think if a child is asked to do something that they don't want to do? Consent adults, whatever. What should a child do if an adult wants them to do something that kid doesn't want to do, or they're not comfortable with saying they should, just say no. Okay. She writes down on the flip show, just say no. Big letters. Fantastic. Flip the page over. Let's do something different. Um, everybody separate your chairs. Men on one side of the room, women on the other. But don't face your partner. Face somebody you don't know. Bring your chairs into the middle of the rooms. Everybody shuffle your seats forwards. Everybody shuffles in politely to the middle. How did you do face in this person? They've never met. And the moderator says, okay, now gentlemen, just open your knees a little bit. Ladies, shuffle in a little closer. So your knees are touching the chair of the gentleman in front of you. Shuffle, shuffle. Okay, now ladies, just close your eyes. Guys, um, just wanting to touch her hair and her shoulders. Just pat, pat, pat. That's it, we're done. Go back and sit with your partner. And you're all done. And they went back and sat there and she said, OK, so what did you think of this exercise that we've just done? And they were like, oh, I didn't like it at all. I didn't like that. And she flips back the charge. So why didn't you just say no? Because you're the teacher in charge. If you're, an adult, can't say no to the person in charge, the master, the teacher, the guru, then how is a kid supposed to we have to empower people. We have to tell people that they have personal agency. That's why I say to people, if you want to take Shavasana or child's pose for an hour in my class, do you? That's fine. There are people who come to a class that break off into a whole different thing, and I'm like, that's fine, but do it at the back of the class so it's not to confuse people. Okay? And if you need to soften this posture for you because of something that's going on in your heart right now, in your life or your body, do that. Please don't just go, well, Zad says we have to stand here with our leg straight. So I have to stand with my leg straight? Absolutely not.

Uyi

So no, it's your journey.

Zaz

It's your journey. You're the most important person on your yoga mat, and I'm just here to hold that space for you to come back to you. That's what I want. And I want to something you said earlier when I said I'm clacking you is on the front of my website. My mantra is I want to challenge your mind's perception of what you can do every time.

Uyi

So you can fulfill your potential.

Zaz

Yeah, so that you can fulfill your potential. I'm doing a retreat, an arm balances inversions retreat in September. And I want to invite people who've never done that before or who have done it before. Come and explore. Come and discover what you're capable of in a safe space.

Uyi

I'm conscious of your time.

Zaz

I am. And I'm going to have to head off.

Uyi

Exactly. Thank you for coming. Actually, it's been really interesting. And actually, you've put in a lot of information. Ah. So that has been really useful. Where can we find more about the yoga you teach? Where you teach? Where can we follow you?

Zaz

Um, you can find me on yoga with Zazz. So zayzed. It's yoga.com at, uh, yog on Instagram. Mainly on Instagram, I'd say, and on my website, and if you want to connect with me, drop me a DM or uh Yog@gmail.com. Everything. There yoga with as, yoga with ZAZ.

Uyi

Absolutely. It's been incredible. Thank you for spending the time. And it's been really valuable because you've actually given all the information.

Zaz

Good. Thank you so much for having me.

Uyi

Thank you.

Zaz

Great.

Uyi

You.