Intersections: Farah Khan

00:00 SPEAKER_02 Hey guys, welcome back to The Point Of U, I'm your host Uyi Agbontaen and in today's episode I sat down with the brilliant Farah Khan, a London based academic and heads the department of sociology and psychology. So we got into all things sociological, we discussed her journey, working abroad in the Emirates, intersectionality and the sociological imagination. First thing we should say is actually Farah or Farah?

00:30 SPEAKER_00 I honestly don't mind, I do call myself Farah. I'd say Farah.

00:34 SPEAKER_02 Yeah, Farah. You know what's interesting? I'm a child of the 80s. I know a lot of Muslims who today will choose a name for their child that can be Muslim but also Western. So they'll be like, it's Adam. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Or they'll say Liam. Or Mohammed, but it's Mo. Yeah, Mohammed or Mo, right? I feel like Mohammed is just kind of standard, like it's the most popular name in the world anyway. It is. It's fine to be Mohammed.

00:57 SPEAKER_00 It becomes Mo, like even with Mo Farah. Mo Farah, Mo Salah. Who say Mohammed Farah or Mohammed Salah? No one's saying it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you say it, you're like, oh, actually.

01:06 SPEAKER_02 You're right. Like a lot of people do kind of abbreviate it to make it more Western. No one's ever seen my names before. So every time I travel, every country, I know that I'm going to get the same reaction. So they open the passport and then they look at my name and they look at me and they start smiling. And I just remember once I went to Turkey and the guy looked at the passport, here we go again, and he looks at me and then he goes, where are you from? And I said, I'm from the UK. That's always an interesting question.

01:32 SPEAKER_00 We can talk about that as well later. That's an interesting one. It's a very interesting question. I've had that many, many times.

01:37 SPEAKER_02 Yeah. So he goes, no, no, where are you from? Where are you from? And I said, you mean my family? I said, I'm Nigerian. And he said, Algerian? I said, no, no, no, Nigerian. He said, Algerian. I said, no, Nigerian. He goes, no, no, no, no, Nigeria, Algeria. I said, no, he'd never heard of Nigeria. Wow. He'd never heard of Nigeria. Wow.

01:55 SPEAKER_00 And then it was like, okay, that's the end of the conversation. Yeah. So he just dismissed your entire existence.

01:59 SPEAKER_02 I mean, like to him, his frame of reference was kind of like, I guess, North Africa. That's it, yeah. And that was it, basically. Yeah. You know, like sub-Saharan was a bit too far for him. Yeah.

02:08 SPEAKER_00 So Farah, thank you for coming on. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

02:11 SPEAKER_02 And we've been trying to kind of coordinate this for a while. Yeah. So I'm glad you were able to come and make it. Obviously, we're going to kind of get into your journey. And I know you've been living abroad. You're an academic and you teach. So we'll get into that. But first, obviously, thank you. You had your own podcast, didn't you?

02:27 SPEAKER_00 I did. It was a lockdown project. And it was me and my two friends. We're all teachers. And it was in 2020. To me and my friends, we think we talk about lots of interesting topics. So one day, one of my friends just said, it'd be really cool if we started a podcast. And we were all like, yeah, haha, it'd be really cool. And we were in lockdown at this stage. So we just thought, okay, great. And we basically just ran with it. So we started it as a let's talk about some topics that we generally talk about, like we have feminists, for example, we talk about teaching, we talk about our journeys in Dubai. We spoke about being in the education system. We spoke about social mobility, et cetera. And then towards the end of lockdown, we were back in school. We were teaching back to our busy lives. One of my friends moved to Amman. I then ended up moving to the UK and now the final ones left in Dubai. So because of logistics, it basically just came to an end. But we still get together and have very interesting conversations. But the world will just never know about those conversations now. How long did it run for? I'm going to say about just over half a year, maybe about six months. How many episodes did you guys? I think we did like a good 10. I'm going to say a solid 10.

03:40 SPEAKER_02 Yeah, obviously we were all going through lockdown. The whole world was going through lockdown. But you had like an extra layer because you weren't in the UK.

03:46 SPEAKER_00 So when I say lockdown, I mean actual lockdown. So actually, now that I'm thinking about it, the reason that it also came to an end is because we weren't allowed to go out of our apartments. So the lockdown was actually you are locked in your apartment. If you want to leave, you go onto the UAE government website. You apply for a permit. You tell them why you want to leave, exercise, food, whatever it may be. And then you sit and you wait for them to approve it. And I remember I would hear like announcements. So you would have police cars just going through the streets. The streets were empty and you'd have police cars going through the streets with sirens. And then they would broadcast a message. It would be in Urdu, English and Arabic. And it was pretty much this is a lockdown. Stay in your apartments. That was it. They were very strict, but rightfully so because the numbers were very low. UAE's United Arab Emirates. Yeah. And I was residing in Dubai. So there's different Emirates. I was in Dubai, which is not the capital. The capital is Abu Dhabi. Lots of people think it's Dubai. It's the party capital. Yeah, exactly. Although I was working there as a teacher. So it's good lifestyle there. But yeah, lockdown was serious lockdown. There were no flights coming in at one stage. And actually flying out became increasingly difficult. I didn't come home for a whole year because of the lockdown. And that's when I realised, it's probably time for me to come home now because it was so tricky to come back. So when did you go to the UAE initiative? 2018. And then I left July of last year, 2022.

05:16 SPEAKER_02 Actually, one area that we didn't hear too much about was the impact of it in the Middle East. Because when we heard about Covid, we obviously heard about the UK and Europe, obviously, because we're in the UK. And for us, our frame of reference is the West. Yeah. And Italy was hit first and then it was Italy and then obviously the UK was locked down. And we heard about America as well. And obviously then we heard about Asia because Covid started in Asia. Yeah. So what was it like in the Middle East?

05:39 SPEAKER_00 So I remember it was all over the West and it was slowly making its way over to the Middle East. We were pretty good for a good couple of months. I can't remember where it came from, but we had this case. It was one case and then it was a knock on effect and then another person got in and so on and so on. And then all the schools in the UAE were told, bring your spring break forward. And we just never went back to school. Now, people had planned to go on holiday in the spring break. But obviously your spring break will now be your working back at school. So that was a bit of a hoo-ha. We were teaching online, which is awful if you're a teacher, teaching online is not easy. But it was considerably easier for me than my colleagues back in the UK. My friends that are teachers teaching in the UK were like, furrow it online, waiting for our students to turn up. Nobody's there. Whereas I worked in a private school in the UAE. British curriculum, the exact same curriculum, but the kids that pay for their education, right? So I'd go online and all the kids will be there. Most of them will be there. There's always one and two. But in terms of you're very used to walking around, talking to kids, you can gauge their facial impressions, et cetera. When you're teaching online and because of safeguarding concerns, they went and had their cameras on. In the beginning they were. And then there was one teacher who was teaching and then a kid, I think he was in sixth form at the time, and he stood up and he had his boxers on. So he always did it. No, I don't know. He was a bit cheeky. I don't know. He was a bit cheeky. So he might have done it on purpose. I'm not sure. But he stood up with his underpants on, right? So he had like a shirt on and then he had underpants on. So from that point on was they said, yeah, you can't ask anyone to put their cameras on. But the teachers in the beginning had to put their cameras on for like 10, 15 minutes and then you could turn it off and on and off as you choose. Right. But it was just difficult because if I'm teaching you something, I don't know if you're getting it or not. It was a unique experience.

07:27 SPEAKER_02 Yeah. But maybe it was all part of a kid's plan. He was like, yeah, switched cameras off. And that's it. No more lessons.

07:33 SPEAKER_00 Yeah, exactly. And the thing is, like, if your teacher says your name, right, your mate is just going to message you and say, you know, Miss Khan is asking for you. Quickly come back or wake up or whatever. So they're looking out for each other. Meanwhile, you're there like, hello, could you please unmute your mic? Oh, wow. The thing is, the restrictions were rigid, but then they were lifted quickly as well. Like we had to walk around with our masks on outside. So when I came back to the UK, I was walking around with my mask on outside. And no one was wearing them here. Yeah. And my friend was like, my friends and family were like, are you OK? You're outside in the open. Why are you wearing your mask? And it's because I was so used to behaving a certain way. And then it was tricky because then you're in the UK for six weeks over the summer and you go back, you're walking around with your mask off. This is nice freedom. And they're really strict. So then it's like you don't want to annoy them because that would go horribly wrong. Adjusting was difficult. Although actually I remember Dubai was lenient, but Abu Dhabi was not lenient. So then you had Emirates. There were differences in the Emirates. So that was interesting. So even to go into a mall, they had this sort of app. They've got apps for everything there, right? So they had this app where you would have to show that you had a covid test in the last 30 days to get into a mall in Abu Dhabi. But then in Dubai, you're fine. To be fair, it's a small country. Yes, there are seven different Emirates, but it's a very small country. There's nine million people, by the way, in the UAE, nine million. London, there's nine million people in London. In the UK, there are 66 million people. I'm not even from London. I'm from, you know, Berkshire. I don't want to say it's slough. No one's judging you. I love a bit of slough. I love slough, but I'm from slough, right? It's very multicultural. There's a lot of people in slough. There's a lot of people in London. Dubai is small. The UAE is small. When you've been there for a long time, it's not the same.

09:16 SPEAKER_02 There's certain countries in the Middle East where everything's quite new. And I feel like Emirates is one of those countries where everything was like built really quickly. And it's expanding. It's constantly building. So I feel like that's the issue. And I also feel like in the Gulf States, the population isn't very large. No. So you go to like Egypt, you can tell, like it's populated. You go to Cairo and you're like, what is this? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like it's intense because there's loads of people there. And then you go to the Gulf States and you're like, oh, it's just kind of empty. Yeah, it's all desert. Yeah, it's all desert. I guess culturally, it would have been a little bit different than coming from the UK and going to…

09:49 SPEAKER_00 So, fun fact. Fun fact. Before moving to the UAE, I had not been to the Middle East. At all? At all. I was 25 when I moved. So I was young. I was very much building my career, working on education, et cetera. I'm very historical. My background is politics and sociology. I did a dissertation on the Arab-Israeli War. I'm very into history. So my own perceptions of it were very rooted in the stereotype of what Dubai is, like its camera action. And by the way, when I moved over, I was in a plane full of teachers. So my school had basically got all these people out from the UK. So it was great. I go over there and I'm like, wow, where's the Burj Khalifa? So I'm like, in this car, but everything is big. Everything's tall and big. And it was nighttime, so I couldn't tell. And it was only the next day when I started to look around. And then obviously the following months, et cetera, I realized that, wow, it's so different. But honestly, it is an incredible society. For me as a sociologist, I find it interesting the society they have there. Because I would say for me personally, the culture shock is that there is no culture shock. So yes, you go there and you have people in their thobes and there are buyers. You had the Adhan. The Adhan, by the way, is a call to prayer. There are mosques everywhere. There are mosques every sort of three minute walk. But I remember going to the beach. JBI is a beach sort of little area. So I literally lived on the beach front and I'd go to the beach all the time. I would see a lady in a bikini and I would see a lady in a burkini, which is basically a fuller buyer. Nobody says anything. People mind their business and everyone's having a great time. So for me, it's interesting because I think people's perceptions of the UAE is, I had a lot of people say to me like, oh, it's strict there. You have to dress modestly, et cetera. But then you can see people dress however they wish to dress to a certain extent. Like you can't go to the mall wearing your hot pants, for example. So there is a dress code, which is in the beach you wear whatever. But when you're in the mall, you need to be relatively modest. But I've seen people not adhere to that dress code and no one has said anything. But then you have societies like France where it's a democratic society. But we all saw that image of a Muslim female in a hijab and a police officer literally over her and telling her to remove her clothing because she was wearing too many clothes on the beach. So for me, it's interesting because I think a lot of people have these misconceptions of an Islamic society or the Arab world, they call it, which is always interesting. It's not the Arab world. It's the Arab region. There's no separate world. There's one world. There's one Earth. It's a separate region. But I think people have these perceptions of it's a very different society. They're all wearing hijabs and they're covered head to toe and the women's are wearing burqas. And okay, there are some people that wear that. But then equally next to them, you'd have someone in shorts and t-shirts. Everyone minds their own business, which is brilliant. It's great. And I've got a lot of friends there and their experience as well. They very much enjoy the life there. It's a nice life there.

12:51 SPEAKER_02 I would agree with everything you said. I think it's quite a Western, Middle Eastern country. They do retain obviously a lot of their culture, but I think America's had a heavy influence on the Gulf region anyway. I think when you get to North Africa, you realize it's different. They have their own culture. Yeah, I think so. Because Dubai is a very popular place to go. People realize, you know, it's like the Vegas of the Middle East. You can go and do what you want. You can party. There's clubs. There's bars. You can go to the beach. There's no restrictions. You can drink alcohol in most places.

13:20 SPEAKER_00 I think it is also what you make it though, because a lot of people also said that to me, like it's the Las Vegas or the Middle East. And it is. Don't get me wrong. It is. There's loads of places to party and have a great time. But also it is what you make it. And I have a lot of friends there from so many different backgrounds that are not interested in the party lifestyle. They have family there, so they raise their kids there. I have friends that have a lot of interest in the party lifestyle. I really love it there. So I think it is really what you make it. I do think it is a society that you can make your own. The lifestyle is not being pushed down your throat. Whereas I think in the UK, there is a set lifestyle in the sense that there is an after work culture. For example, on Friday, what happens? You finish work. You go to the local pub with your work colleagues. In Dubai, you can do that. And people still do that. There are so many pubs there, bars, etc. But if you want to go for a walk down the beach, you can do that. If you want to go and do X, Y and Z, you can do that.

14:17 SPEAKER_02 There's not one norm, which I like. It was interesting actually what you said about the cultural differences in terms of France and the dress code. France has obviously been in the media a lot in terms of, I don't know if culture clash is the right word.

14:31 SPEAKER_00 Islamophobia, I think is the right word. I mean, there's Islamophobia, but I think it goes beyond that. Yeah, yeah, no, of course.

14:36 SPEAKER_02 Because obviously, to be honest, in terms of a migrant history, France has had a much older migrant history than the Emirates. Because France went out and colonised lots of countries. So there's been like a big foreign community in France for a long time, especially from Africa and North Africa. You'd think that in a country that has had people living in France who've come from somewhere else over a long period of time, let's say a hundred years, that the French would be a little bit more accepting. Whereas I feel like they've taken a harder stance now. The French just had their election and it was close right between the far right and I guess traditional conservatives. Marie Le Pen was viewed as possibly winning. And that's how divided France has become. And to be honest, Europe is, I mean, the UK, we've gone through Brexit ourselves. So there's this conversation in Europe about what it means to be a European citizen. What does the culture mean? And it's happening in America as well. In France, there's been issues about people wearing religious wear because they consider themselves a secular state. And then people would have this view that if you were in the Middle East, they would be more strict. But actually, most countries in the Middle East are actually quite relaxed about what you wear. Within most contexts, there are certain contexts where they would be like, well, you know, you're going into this area, you need to dress a certain way, which is the same actually as if you were going to Italy. And if you were going to the Vatican City, they would expect you to dress a certain way before going into certain areas. It's exactly the same. You're in Vatican City, you need to dress a certain way to get into this area.

16:00 SPEAKER_00 And you have to remember, look, at the end of the day, you're in a different country, right? So you do need to respect the country's laws. Now, the whole thing with Qatar and the World Cup, that was controversial. And I understand that people have facets of their identity that are really, really important to them, granted. But why should a country change its rules and laws to meet your needs? I feel like sometimes the West pushes the Western paradigm onto the East. It doesn't really happen the other way around.

16:32 SPEAKER_02 I don't see the East pushing their Eastern paradigm onto us. Unless you watch Fox News, they'll be like, it happens all the time. Daily Mail as well. Yeah, Daily Mail.

16:40 SPEAKER_00 Ripper Murdoch, he'll be saying that all day every day. I think we need to live in a tolerant society. Generally speaking, I think we need to live in a tolerant society. And I think it's important to acknowledge people's identity and to be respectful. But then at the same time, do I think countries, not just the Middle East, I'm talking about countries in general, do I think they need to change all their rules and laws to fit into this sort of, and I will keep saying Western paradigm because for me, the globalisation often is Western culture. So, imperialism. Imperialism, absolutely. So do I think they need to change their rules and laws to make you feel a little bit better? No. And that World Cup, look, there were some real highs, some real highs in that World Cup. For the first time ever, there were people from parts of Asia and Africa that were actually able to make it, geographically speaking, because of where it was based, they were actually able to go. There were no barriers. There were no barriers. There were no barriers. And there were these players that were actually playing in the climate that they're used to playing in. So again, there were some real highs.

17:43 SPEAKER_02 It's interesting you said that because actually I think that paradigm is very valid. And obviously we live in the West, even though our families, our parents may not have come from the West, but we've been born and brought up in the West. We internalised this Western paradigm. And I think Qatar had a really hard time before the World Cup. And actually, to be honest, I was sceptical. Qatar, it's like 50 degrees. How are they going to do it? So I was sceptical. Also during the World Cup, they were getting hammered by the Western media, like the British media were hammering them, like the same topics coming up again and again and again. And actually, I think watching it, Qatar did a really good job. You know, when they have the World Cup in America, well, not everybody can go to America. It's a privilege from a Western perspective. Yeah, World Cup is in America, great, we can go. There's many countries that can't go because you need a visa to get there. And then also there's always been this association with, especially in the UK, football. And we go and we watch the game, we have a few pints and it's drinking. And obviously in Qatar, it wasn't like that. They were like, well, no, there's going to be very, very, very limited places that you can drink. Very limited. Oh, wow, we're going to enjoy the game. People had an amazing time. Families were there. And even the Brits were like, this is really good. The fans were there like, we didn't expect it to be run so well. It was so good. It was so enjoyable. There was no fights. There was no trouble. And what I found interesting as well was when the media was talking about Qatar and the buildup, it was all about the human rights issues in Qatar, the human rights issues. OK, fine. But when the World Cup was in Russia, you didn't bring up all those human rights issues before, right? But now it's in Qatar. Oh, what about the human rights? It's like, well, why didn't you protest like back in Russia? Why didn't the media constantly bring it up? And even like some of the sports pundits in the UK were like, well, what's this agenda? You keep bringing up, let's just enjoy the football. Yeah. Let's not get involved so much in the politics.

19:23 SPEAKER_00 Because it was everything that's wrong with the society. Let's talk about that. That was a problem. And don't get me wrong. Some of the things that you've just mentioned now, the human rights issue is a problem. No one's downplaying that. But like you just said, Russia, China, the US is holding it next. The US is holding it next, right? Yes.

19:40 SPEAKER_02 Guantanamo Bay is still open in the US, right?

19:42 SPEAKER_00 And it was supposed to be closed under Obama. That was one of his promises, which he failed to do.

19:46 SPEAKER_02 So I think there's 30 people still detained in Guantanamo Bay. So there are people who are still detained in this facility that have not had any charges placed against them. There's no charges. And they're still under detention in a country that's supposed to value human rights and liberty and freedom. I guarantee you when it comes to the World Cup, they're not going to mention at all about Guantanamo Bay. They're never going to say it at all.

20:07 SPEAKER_00 Talking about Guantanamo Bay, last month I met a Guantanamo Bay previous inmate, Moaz Mbeg. So he came to the local mosque and he wanted to share his story. And he is now a social activist. So he is an advocate of getting the remaining inmates out because like you just said, they are there and they've not been charged with anything. And some of the stories he was telling about how some of the inmates that he was with at the time had been locked in coffins and waterboarding and awful, awful inhumane treatment. And again, interesting that it's in Cuba, isn't it? It's in Cuba, yeah. So it's not actually part of the United States? No, it is part of the United States, which is another interesting thing. But it's not part of their land. I don't know how they get away with it.

20:47 SPEAKER_02 It's true, it's true actually. Basically when Cuba had their independence, America invaded. And then America said basically that they're going to retain Guantanamo Bay. I think America allowed a Cuban government to form, but it was on the basis that the Americans were happy with who were in power, the government. So America always had control. And this was obviously leading on to many years later, Castro creating the revolution. They set up this proxy government and they said, we are going to retain this land as American territory. And America, I don't want to kind of downplay America too much because America does amazing things. It was a great social experiment and there are many things that America has done that are good and have influenced the world.

21:25 SPEAKER_00 But at the same time, there's another side to America. I'm going to call it relative morality because it's very much my morals are important and my morals are very much we need to care about human rights. But let's not look at what's happening in my country. Exactly.

21:38 SPEAKER_02 Like, you know, Roe versus Wade and women's rights and stuff. America is going through some interesting times, but I think now people are now revisiting what it means to be their own nation. And people are actually looking away from America a bit now, looking away from the West, especially like in the Middle East and in Africa and in Asia. There was one intellectual who's been questioned and I think he was Indian. And they said, well, why is India still doing deals with Russia? Why aren't you aligning yourself with Europe? And he said, it's really interesting that you asked me that because he said that when the rest of the world has a problem, Europe says that's the rest of the world's problem. But when Europe has a problem, that problem becomes the problem for the rest of the world. And he's like, that's not how it works. Absolutely.

22:15 SPEAKER_00 No, that's interesting. And again, it's going all the way back to our Western paradigm. So the US has cut relations with Russia and the UK has sanctioned Russia, etc. So the rest of the world should now be doing the same thing. And it's like, hang on a minute. I don't have to follow what you're doing.

22:28 SPEAKER_02 The needle is starting to turn. Right. Everyone's now looking at the East, they're looking at China, basically. They're saying this is the big player that's coming up. All right. We've already talked about a lot of stuff, actually. We've already hit a lot of points. Let's get into what you do as a profession. So you're a lecturer, you're an academic and you teach sociology. Yeah.

22:43 SPEAKER_00 So I am a teacher of sociology and psychology. So I'm currently head of faculty where I lead three departments and I like to talk about all things sociological. So sociology is really my passion and sociology just for your listeners. Again, I don't want to insult their intelligence, but sociology, it's a very broad subject matter. So sociology is a social science. So it's concerned with society. It's the study of society. So it really does range from the mass media, education, family, crime, religion. Anything you can think about what's happening in society, we look at it in sociology. We tend to focus on human relationships and social institutions, but it really does look at everything and any social stratification, hierarchy, race, religion, inequality, sexism, everything you can think of. I was in awe. And on the way here, actually, I was talking to my sister about this concept called intersectionality. And I was saying to her, the reason why I love sociology is because there are new terms that come up all the time and you feel a certain way. It's not the fact that you can't articulate yourself. There's just no word for it, like a microaggression. Now, if you face a microaggression, you now have the vocab say, hang on a minute, that's a microaggression. Whereas before we didn't have the vocab for it. And I have to say, it's all the sociologists that are coming up with these new terms.

24:04 SPEAKER_02 Obviously, people have heard of things like capitalism. They've heard of Marxism. They've heard of feminism, but they've not necessarily linked that to sociology and how much sociologists have played a part in developing these terms. So one thing I want to ask you is why is sociology relevant?

24:20 SPEAKER_00 Sociology is relevant because it's the study of society. You can't make sense of society without understanding it. It's the same as history, for example. You can't make sense of what has happened in the world without studying it. Right. And the thing is mistakes happen all the time. There's always wars happening left, right and center. And it's like, if only you were to look at the history of that country, you would have realized X, Y and Z. Or if only you were to look at historical wars, you'd realize you're doing the same thing. Sociology allows me to understand my experiences in society. So, for example, I like to talk to my students and talk about something called the sociological imagination. So I think everyone needs to have a sociological imagination. And that is the ability to understand your lived experiences in a social, political and historical lens. So, for example, I'll just go back to the term intersectionality. So a lady called Kimberley Crenshaw, she coined the term intersectionality. And it's something that I always felt, but I just never knew what the word was. What it means is you have multiple forms of inequality that overlap and that creates your unique experiences. So I have a unique experience compared to you, right? So, for example, if I talk about myself, I am a ethnic minority. I'm female and I'm Muslim. There are also other aspects of my identity, but I'll just talk about those three. So those three elements of my identity overlap and can cause inequality for me and will act as discrimination. Because I can face Islamophobia being Muslim, I can face racism being an ethnic minority and I can face sexism. So I also identify as an intersectional feminist. But the issue with feminism or the issue with mainstream feminism is it directly has catered for white middle class females. A white middle class atheist female, although we both have one level of discrimination, which is sexism, we don't have the same lived experiences. Where do I fit in? The only thing we have in common is the female element, which, yes, that is a level of our oppression, but that's as far as it goes. Our lived experiences are very, very different. And now this term intersectionality has been around for a while. It just allows me to understand where I fit in society, because the truth is those facets of my identity will act in some ways a barrier and in some ways a privilege. I'm also an able-bodied individual. So someone who has perhaps the same ethnic background as me, but has a disability, we share the same ethnic background and that's it. They now have a different level of discrimination. So I think it just really gets you to understand your place in society. And for me, it makes sense.

27:01 SPEAKER_02 I hope that answered your question on why is it relevant? No, it did. It did in a lot of detail. And then you kind of combined it with the intersectionality, which is a very interesting way of looking at the world. Yeah, Kimberley Crenshaw came up with this in the 80s, who was a professor of law. When she looked at case studies to evidence this, it wasn't really accepted. It's only recently that people have been like, oh, actually, she's right.

27:22 SPEAKER_00 Because it moves away from the conventional way of thinking. The case studies that she was looking at, she was trying to say there's an intersectional problem here. It's not just this person's a female, therefore suffers from sexism. No, it's this person has a unique experience. And I think that's the important term. It's a unique experience. You can't lump it together. You can't lump it together. Look, ethnic minorities, we suffer from racism, for example, but we're not one homogenous group. Africa is a huge continent. Asia is the biggest continent. The whole of Africa is not homogenous. They're not the same lived experiences. Same with Asia, same with all other continents. So I think she in a very sophisticated way, which people at the time did not understand because their conventional way of thinking was it's separate factors. And she said, no, hang on a minute. It's all three or two or whatever it may be. But it's multiple forms that act together that create unique forms of discrimination.

28:13 SPEAKER_02 Quite visionary, quite ahead of her time. She looked at particular cases where black females were trying to bring industrial action against their employers. And they were saying we are being discriminated because we are black females. We're not being discriminated just because we're black. We're not being discriminated just because we're female because the judge was like, well, you have to pick one or the other. You can't pick both. And like, no, black males aren't experiencing what we're experiencing. And it's unique to the feminist experience because females aren't experiencing what we're experiencing. General Motors was one of the cases. They were basically letting go employees, making them redundant. And they had this policy that anyone who wasn't employed before a particular time would be the first ones to go. It's a seniority thing. Yeah. And didn't employ black females before the 1960s. So when they started to make these women redundant in the 1970s, the first people who they made redundant were the black females. And the black females were like, well, this isn't fair. You know, you're just picking us wholesale and saying you guys are going to get redundant. So when they tried to bring this case to court, the judge was like, well, no, you have to pick one or the other. You're either suing on gender. And if they did go down that line, he'd say, well, no, they're white females who are still employed or you're suing on race. And they're like, if they go down that line, you say, well, they're black males who are still employed. So it was unique to their experience. And some of the issues of how society structured create the problem anyway. And that's something that, again, that Kimberley Crenshaw talks about. You might have addressed one issue, but the structures that perpetuate the issue are still in place. Right. You might have addressed inequality in terms of gender, but the structures in society still perpetuate the inequality. And a good example is Covid. Covid kind of still threw up all these issues amongst many minority groups, whether you were female, whether you were an ethnic minority. It threw up with these groups like they're still in equality. Right. So one of the issues that a lot of females experienced, especially in the UK, was actually they were being penalized because most of the primary caregivers in all societies, sweeping generalization, but that's my opinion. But definitely in the UK, most primary caregivers are female. You know, it's normally the mothers who are looking after children, who might be looking after a parent. And so when it came to Covid and you had to now decide what are you going to do? Are you going to work or are you going to look after your kids? Because everyone has to stay at home. Kids have to stay at home as well. Well, actually, the females had to stay at home because they were the ones more likely to look after the kids. And the men who were in those relationships were more likely to go to work. And that's the intersectionality you see. Like actually, even though we have gender equality, there is still discrimination because the structure of society is this way. But also it's becoming a little bit controversial intersectionality today. Some people are rejecting it.

30:48 SPEAKER_00 Rejecting it for me, I struggle with that. I can't just pick aspects of my identity. There are aspects of my identity that are very important to me. So I don't know if you've ever thought about sort of a hierarchy of your identity. If you ever have thought about that, what would you place at the top? What would you place at the bottom? I think even if you were to do that, what you would place at the bottom, although it might not be important to you, it still might be a visible difference to the other person. And what you place at the top might not be a visible difference. For example, me being Muslim is very important, but I don't wear the hijab. So how can you tell that I'm Muslim? There's no sort of visual clue that I'm a Muslim. But then I would consider myself working class. I think many would not, but I consider myself working class. That's important. Again, I don't think you can tell because how would you tell? But then me being ethnic minority is also very, very important. But that aspect of my identity, you can tell because I'm brown. You can tell that I'm a brown female. Sometimes people have a visible disability. So you can tell that there's something, you know, they're not able-bodied person, for example. But then someone may have a hidden disability. For example, they may have dyslexia. They may have mental health challenges, et cetera. So it's really tricky if you then dismiss elements of their identity, if they reveal those elements, right? But it's very difficult for them to be accepted or for them to navigate through society if they're not being accepted as their whole self. And it's tricky in the UK because, I mean, yes, we live in a very multicultural society, especially down here in London. But can we bring our whole selves to a place of work? I'm not sure. You know, ethnic minorities on a whole, an article I read the other day, and ethnic minorities on a whole are more likely to suffer from things like imposter syndrome. It's not to say that they don't have the accolades, the experience, the skill set to be in the position they're in. But at the same time, if you go into a meeting full of people that don't look like you, regardless of your accolades and your experience, you will feel like an imposter. So I think it's really difficult for people to bring their whole self, like their whole full authentic self to work anyway. So for me, I think I like this whole intersectionality thing. I know some people don't like the word woke, but this whole woke culture and the rise of all these different elements in society, for me it's important because I think it's allowing people, small steps, baby steps, but allowing people to bring parts of their identity to work that they would not bring. For example, recently at work we celebrated Cultural Heritage Day. Just one day. Just one day. That's enough. But you know what? One day is better than no day. Because in my school we never had a Cultural Heritage Day. Absolutely. And this day was brilliant. We had people in their own traditional attire. We had music, we had dance, we had food, the lot. And I was so amazed and again in awe to see young people, because teenagers are too cool to be in school, too cool. And to see them in their traditional attire, to see them bring their whole selves to an education system, I loved it. And yes, Ashameen was one day, but I just sort of would think back to my experiences. So I wore shraakhanis, which is traditional Pakistani attire. And I thought, would I wear that to school? I don't know, because I remember when my mum used to be packing my lunches, when she would pack things like a paratha and curry, I'm like, Mum, you put it to the side. I'm like, put it to the side. My favourite food, but I'll be eating that as soon as I get home. Because you don't want to be othered by the kids. But I'm not being othered. I didn't want to be that foreign kid, even though I'm born and bred in the UK. It's from a very young age, I think we are. It's not even tall. It comes natural to us.

34:30 SPEAKER_02 It's a hard one, because obviously like there's this idea of being British. What does it mean to be British? Like we said before we even started recording, you know, people say to me, where are you from? And I always say, well, I'm British. But where are you really from? And that's the next question. The question is, yeah, but where are you really from? No, really, I'm from here. And I find that's a funny question, because I get what the person's trying to say. And I could just say, well, you know, my parents are from Nigeria. That's what they want to hear. But then the stubbornness of me is like, why is it not enough for me to say I'm from here?

35:00 SPEAKER_00 Yeah, good for you. And also, I think they are trying to ask two very different questions, because one question is, where are you from? Perhaps that's nationality. Another question is, what is your ethnicity? If you're asking me my ethnicity, then ask me the correct question. The correct question is, what is your ethnicity? Now, people might not want to ask you that because it's a bit formal. Where are you ethnically from, for example? But then I think if you want to know something specific, then ask me the specific question. So for me, it was interesting, right? Because when people say to me, where are you from in the UK, I tend to think they're saying ethnicity. That's my go-to. I'm thinking they're asking me where I'm ethnically from. So I'll say, I'm from Pakistan. But in the UAE, everyone loves that question. Where are you from? They love that question. And in the UAE, it was interesting because when I would say to people, I'm Pakistani, the Pakistanis would not accept that. Yeah, of course. They would not accept that. I was about to say that as well. They'd be like, Pakistanis are like, you're not Pakistani. Come on, you're British. Exactly. English girl, what are you trying to kill? Literally, literally. Who is this imposter? So I would say things like, okay, let me now start saying my town from Pakistan. Let me make reference to my village in Pakistan. But no, they're still not taking that. Let me make reference to where we now have moved to in Pakistan. Again, they're not accepting that. So I know they're not going to accept the fact that I'm Pakistani. So then very quickly it became, I'm British Pakistani. Very quickly it became that. And that is my identity. I have a hybrid identity. I am British Pakistani. So that question, I think for some people it's a loaded question. I find it interesting because as a sociologist, I am just fascinated with cultural heritage. I like learning about culture. I like learning about people, where they're from, et cetera. But I think it's really important to ask the correct question. And also it is a microaggression to say, no, where are you really from? Because you should, like your experience.

36:55 SPEAKER_02 I think now people know it's a microaggression. Yes. So they don't say where you're really from. Yeah. Right. They say it in a different way. They're more savvy about how they answer questions because they can be aware that this might be perceived as being racist or bigoted or misogynistic. So they'll phrase it in a different way. Whereas obviously when you go abroad, they're a bit more blatant about it. Yeah. Because they're like, no, where are you from? Yeah. You know, where are you from? No, come on. You're not British.

37:21 SPEAKER_00 Where are you from? And they won't take the answer unless you give them the answer they want to hear. Yeah. So what I found interesting about specifically Egyptian students in the UAE, I remember asking a specific question. I remember saying to them, put your hands up if you are from Africa or from an African country, right? Oh, that's controversial. The Egyptians didn't put their hands up. Yeah, it's a controversial one. Why is it controversial? Because I was teaching them. So it was social studies to give you some context. You know, I wouldn't just put my hands up if you're Asian or African. No. We were looking at geographical features, physical features and human features of different continents. So we started off by looking at Africa. And a lot of them were acting like they did not know any physical features of Africa. So then I thought, okay, let me because it was yesterday. I thought, let me really break it down for them. So then I said, put your hands up if you are from a country in Africa. And then one kid, South Africa, put his hand up. And I looked at the Egyptians like, hello. Yeah. You don't need to put your hands up. Why are you not putting your hands up? It's a controversial. And then I said to them, geographically speaking, like I'm Asian. I can't say Pakistan is not in Asia. Geographically speaking, it is. It's not African Middle East. This is what they say. This is what they say. And that's it. It's okay to say I'm Arab. It's okay to say, you know, I identify as being Arab. I was not asking them if they identify as being African. Although, again, for me, it blows my mind. Maybe it's because, you know, I'm not African. I don't know. But I just think geographically speaking, I see it as I'm Asian because I'm from South Asia. Your country is geographically located in North Africa. Now, whether you want to say North Africa or Africa, fine. But you are in Africa. Yeah. And they didn't get it. And then when I explained it to them, they went, oh, right. Okay. I think it's because they just see it as Arab. Again, like just Middle East.

39:10 SPEAKER_02 I think it goes deeper than that. I think it's internalized racism. It is. And it's interesting that you raised it because it's been quite relevant recently, especially because there's this documentary on Netflix. Have you heard of the documentary on Netflix about Cleopatra? No, I've not seen it. And that's become quite controversial.

39:26 SPEAKER_00 I've heard about it. It's because they depicted her as black. As black.

39:30 SPEAKER_02 Yeah. And Egyptians are like, how dare she's black? What do you know? Egyptians are not black. Yeah. It's quite one to unpack. I guess on the one hand, you already said this, Africa is not this homogenous society. So people say Africans. Well, Africa is a very new concept and it's a Western concept. It's not an African concept. It's only recently that Africans identify as Africans. So that might blow people's minds. Like what? Africans don't think of themselves African? No, they don't. African Americans will think of themselves as African American. But Africans for a long time did not consider themselves African. It's only recently because now they have this kind of shared globalized experience of how they're treated when they go around the world. Because when you go around the world, you get treated like an African. And like, oh, we're actually old Africans, aren't we? Like my family in Nigeria. Nigerians have a hard time saying it in Nigerian because of colonialism, because Nigeria was not a homogenous country. It was like made up. There was no Nigeria before the British came. There was no such thing. There were different kingdoms in that area. And the British came and slowly took over bit by bit by bit by bit and walled of other countries in Europe and then forced these groups together and said, we're going to call it Nigeria because the River Niger goes through the middle and we're going to call it Nigeria. And you're all Nigerian. But ethnically, those people are different. We speak completely different languages.

40:48 SPEAKER_00 I find that very fascinating. So with they historically speaking, would they identify as Yoruba or Igbo? Exactly. So they wouldn't even say Nigeria. They would just make up a name.

40:57 SPEAKER_02 No, de-rented as they would be like, I'm Yoruba, I'm Igbo, I'm Hausa, I'm Bulani. My family are Edo. That's what they are. There's nothing wrong with that.

41:06 SPEAKER_00 And I'm not saying people have to say they're African. I don't have to say I'm Asian. I very rarely say I'm Asian.

41:11 SPEAKER_02 OK. Let me ask you a controversial question. Are you Pakistani or are you Indian?

41:15 SPEAKER_00 I would say I'm Pakistani. And that's because my family are Pakistani, right? I know historically… You know why they're smiling at you. Why are you smoking? I have no problem. Like often when people say, where are you from? I often say, you know, guess. Take a guess. And they'll say India. Like, are you from India? You say, no, no, no, you're close. Pakistan. So then I'm like, no, next door, next door to India. Come on. And they'll be like, OK, Pakistani. So I take no offense to being called Indian. But for me, do I feel Indian? No, because there are cultural differences between India and Pakistan. Again, it's not one homogenous group. It's not. It's not. There are different… But who created a lot of differences? No, no, of course. The British, 100 percent, of course. And they colonized it for 200 years. And yeah, of course, there are a lot of…

42:00 SPEAKER_02 Because there's a lot of Indians, as you know, who would say, you guys aren't Pakistani. You're Indians. You're just calling yourself Pakistani.

42:06 SPEAKER_00 But ethnically speaking, there are so many ethnic groups in India. In India and Pakistan alone, there are so many ethnic groups. But in terms of where we're at now, like my family speak Urdu, that's not the official language in India. They speak Hindi, Punjabi, Suraiqi, lots of different languages, right? But Urdu is the language of Pakistan. And that's Punjabi. I'm from Punjab. So I'm actually from Punjab. But we speak Punjabi and Urdu. See, you're just shifting the goals. No, no, we speak both. We speak both. Punjab's interesting because Punjab goes over Pakistan and India, right? So I'm not saying that there are so many differences. I think we have more in common than that what divides us, for sure. However, I don't feel I'm doing myself justice by saying I'm Indian. Now, there used to be a time back in the day in school where I would take great offense to being called Indian. It's ignorance. It's embarrassing now when I think about it. But now I have no problem because again, like I said, we have more in common than that what divides us. Nonetheless, I am Pakistani. I wait for that Pakistan flag.

43:14 SPEAKER_02 I know, especially when it comes to cricket. You guys are like, no, Pakistan, India. Then it becomes real. That's interesting. The point I'm trying to get across to people who are listening is like Africa's not homogenous. So people say, why is there a war in Rwanda? And it's like because these people, they were separate territories and then you stuck them together and you're like, why are they fighting? Because imagine if you stuck England and France together and said, right, you guys are the same. The English would be like, we're not the same. But then some Chinese person would be like, you guys look the same. What are you fighting about? Aren't you all the same? So Africans only recently, mainly sub-Saharan Africans now say, oh, we are actually African. So then you look at the North Africans and then there's this reluctance to say that they're African because there's a stigma with being African. The West has painted Africa as being backwards, being undeveloped. And it was just the justification of things like slavery. And so North Africans are like, well, why do we want to be associated with Africans? We'd rather call ourselves Arabs. Yeah.

44:10 SPEAKER_00 But then there's a hierarchy when it comes to that.

44:12 SPEAKER_02 The hierarchy is in every society. And the funny thing is Egypt has shifted geographically. Part of Egypt was Sudan. Sudan was part of Egypt and that was upper Egypt, by the way. So lower Egypt was this part closer towards the Middle East. And what's happened is so many cultures have gone into Egypt in the past few hundred years that they have changed how Egyptians look. So this is the controversy, right? People think modern Egyptians, oh, modern Egyptians, they're kind of light-skinned brown people. So they can't be black. It's like that was recent. That's because the Turks went there. The Ottomans went there. That's because the French went there. That's because the British went there. The Romans went there. The Greeks went there. And they changed how people looked. But for thousands of years, they were black. They were dark-skinned black people. And people say, no, that's not true. Egyptians say, no, it's not true. And well, if you look at the ancient Greeks and the ancient Romans, who we read about Egyptians from, they always said they're black people. Yeah. And they would like paint them and they're black. But in the past, say, 200 years, Europeans have said, because obviously everything great has to come from Europe. So how do you explain this wonderful civilization in Egypt? Well, the Egyptians, they're not really Africans. They're different. And the Egyptians have internalized that. That's my view. They have internalized. Well, we're not really Africans. We're different. We're Arab.

45:33 SPEAKER_00 What does that mean? I agree with everything you just said there. And I find it very, very interesting. I actually think it is slowly changing. Because if you think about, again, back to Qatar, the World Cup, Morocco were doing so well. And a lot of the Moroccan players were saying on their Instagram and interviews, et cetera, they were like, you know, first African country to, I can't remember, was it the semifinals or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

45:54 SPEAKER_02 For some North Africans like Egyptians and Libyans, they would be like, wonderful. First Arab country. First Arab, yeah.

46:01 SPEAKER_00 Moroccans are like, we're not Arab, we're African. Yeah. So that was interesting because I think they're trying to shift the narrative a little bit.

46:06 SPEAKER_02 You see these North Africans, they're Indian natives. And they look at the DNA and they're like, oh, you know, we're going to be Arab. They're like, 1% Arab. 1%. If that majority Berber, majority Sub-Saharan African, you are African. Like this Arabness or Turkishness or whatever, like, you know, European, like it only came in the past 100, 200, 300 years. But I think some people are becoming, I guess, woke, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. About, you know, there's a revisionism happening with history. So people are being more aware of how history has been told in a lens of, you know, it's a very Eurocentric lens. Now we're kind of relearning our history.

46:46 SPEAKER_00 Can I ask you a controversial question now? This might be a little bit too controversial. Go ahead. We're focusing quite heavily on North Africans and potentially some of them not wanting to identify as African. And I get it. I get the whole internalised racism. I'm not saying I agree. I actually very strongly disagree. Like with the story I just told you, Caribbean's, they don't like to be called African. Yeah, again, it's internalised racism. With Caribbean's, I don't know many Caribbean's that will tell me and say, no, we're actually African. Because there's a hierarchy there as well. There is. There is a hierarchy. And then is it internalised racism? Probably it is internalised racism because if you look at the history, they are from Africa. Same with the Indians that are in the Caribbean. They don't like to say they're from India or from South Asia.

47:28 SPEAKER_02 There's no one in the Caribbean who's from the Caribbean. Absolutely. They were killed by the Europeans or they died because the Europeans brought diseases with them. So there's no one. There's no one there in the Caribbean. So anyone who says, I'm from the Caribbean, that's like, are you a Taino Indian? No, then you're not from the Caribbean, right? You're from somewhere else. Granted, your genealogy is probably mixed. So you're going to have a bit of European, you're going to have a bit of South Asian, East Asian, largely African. That's most people's experience. Africans and Caribbean's historically didn't get on. Kids getting better. But speaking from my experience growing up in London, I had Caribbean friends, but there was no intermarrying between Caribbean's and African's. And it was because Africans would look down on Caribbean's because they'd be like, well, you guys are descendants of slaves. And Caribbean's would look down on African's because they'd be like, you guys are just backward Africans. And I think that's an internalised racism from years of being conditioned. Like when I asked you about Pakistan and India, people are very quick to point out the differences between groups. I did say there's a lot more in common. But the truth is there is way more in common. 100%. Because you're kind of the same people. You're literally cousins. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Same with Latin Americans like Brazilians and Venezuelans and Puerto Ricans and Dominicans and Cubans. They're being more woke. So they come into terms with their African-ness, even with the Islamic expansion into Africa. Well, a lot of the traders and the Islamic Crusades, like it went down, down, down all the way to Nigeria, right? To Chad and stuff. So like culturally and for a long time as well, like a long, long, long time, you know, almost the inception of Islam, it was in Africa straight away when it spread. Same for Christianity. Where was the first place it went to Africa first? That's where it was before it came to Europe.

49:21 SPEAKER_00 You're absolutely right in saying that. But I think, again, a lot of that is pushed on us. So, for example, this is a very, very random example, but it just popped up in my head. The image of Jesus, he was from Palestine, if we think about geographically speaking. He was born in… Bethlehem. Yeah, he grew up in Egypt. Yeah, he grew up in Egypt. But if you think about where he was born, it wasn't Europe. And I'm really not trying to offend anyone. So I really hope you don't have any sensitive listeners, but we are talking all things sociology. So it's very controversial. But the image that we see of Christ or the image that's pushed on us, it is a male with white skin and blue eyes. I've been to the Levant. I've not been to Palestine, but I've been to Lebanon. I've been to other parts of the Arab region, Amman, Jordan, etc. There aren't many… Blonde hair, blue-dyed people, I'm telling you now. They look similar to you and I than to European people.

50:20 SPEAKER_02 Well, you know what's interesting, actually, because if you look at lots of old depictions of Jesus, he's dark-skinned. Of course. Like black. Recently in Russia, lots of Russian churches, they have black Jesuses. That's interesting. Loads. It's like during the Renaissance period, right, that he changed how Jesus looked. But if you look at the old churches, Jesus is really dark all around Europe. It's like that's a black Jesus. That's a black Mary. There's a black Mary in all these churches. And conveniently, he's moved closer to the European standards of beauty. Yeah. If you talk about the religious texts and stuff, his description in the religious text was he was a dark-skinned man with woolly hair. The same in Islam. There's a scholar. I'm going to try and get him onto the podcast. And he's like, look, most of the prophets that are depicted in the Quran, they're described as black people. Yeah. Right. Like Moses is described as a black person. He literally goes through the description. And it's like they said his skin was dark like mud. And it's like, but if you ask a lot of Muslims, they're like, he's not black.

51:18 SPEAKER_00 Not making an excuse for anyone. But that's probably not knowing your religion as much as you should know. And also, we don't see images of prophets. It's forbidden in Islam. Yes. So if someone was to say, describe Prophet Muhammad, you would have to describe him based on your knowledge of how much you know about him, but also based on where he was born and bred. Again, I think it's like a modern racism because obviously black is negative. Yeah. Unfortunately, that's where we're at at the moment. But like I said, I do think it's slowly changing. Have you heard of Rachel Dalzell? Very controversial who identifies as African-American. In a nutshell, she is a white female. Oh, I've heard of her. She identifies as African-American. So much so that she created a whole story about herself. She was actually teaching African studies, double AACP. She had one of the highest positions in the NAACP.

52:18 SPEAKER_02 The reason she was controversial wasn't because she identifies as black. The reason she was controversial is because she told people she was black. It wasn't until someone discovered that she was white and her parents were like, yeah, she's white. Because if she said, I'm white but identifies as black.

52:34 SPEAKER_00 That's weird. I'm sorry. That's strange. Don't say that. Again, in all things sociology, you can identify however you wish to identify. But me personally, I actually felt really sorry for her. So I think after you watch this documentary, you might feel sorry for her. But it's also strange because she took the highest position in the NAACP. She took that away from a person of color. So that would have been given to a black person. So that's weird because you are a white female taking away someone's position. Number two is strange because I can't quite remember the sort of backstory now, but she actually sued a historical black university for not letting her in. So she used her white privilege to do that. So she was white at one stage in her life. But also, you don't have the same lived experiences as a black female. That for me is the main important part. Because yes, you can tan and yes, you can get a perm. Now, if you look at her, you will think she's African American because she's made herself look that way. But at the same time, I think that's very disrespectful because you don't have the same lived experiences as an actual African American female. So that for me is wrong. There is a difference between cultural appreciation and cultural appropriation. You can appreciate a culture because she has actually done a fair amount for the black community. So I will give her that. She has raised awareness, but you can do a lot for one community without trying to pretend or being an imposter. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

54:06 SPEAKER_02 This is interesting because obviously you're a sociologist, right? So race is a social construct.

54:10 SPEAKER_00 Absolutely. And it was created to divide people. It was created to divide people.

54:14 SPEAKER_02 So the reality is there is no such thing as race. Race is very real because it has real world implications, but it's all made up. Yeah. And what was interesting is nobody had an issue till they found out she was white.

54:27 SPEAKER_00 By the way, the way we found out is because she was being interviewed. I vividly remember this and the interviewer said to her, are you African American? And she went, I don't understand the question. So then he asked it again and she went, I don't understand the question. And then I think she dipped in that was that her white parents later on said, you know, we don't know what's happened to her, but she is white. And they showed pictures of her and her childhood. Look, there are some individuals that really do struggle with the concept of race. For example, I have mixed race friends who struggle being called black because sometimes they're not black enough and the black community will not call them black. It's colorism. Yeah. But then colorism also acts as a privilege as well. It does. But for them, they're not black enough. So they're not black. Right. But then when they go to the other parts of their identity, so let's say if they're white, they're visibly not white enough. So they don't fit into the white category or the black category. But then for me, I'm like, but you're mixed. Embrace that. You are mixed. That's your identity. But who am I to then say that to them? For me, I bring it back to my nieces and nephews. I want them to embrace their mixed heritage, their mixed identity. Again, everyone wants to belong somewhere. You know, Rachel Dolezal, you're white, but you can be an advocate for other communities and underrepresented groups and whatever it is you're doing. You're a philanthropist. Fine.

55:50 SPEAKER_02 But you don't have to say you're African American. I think if she had said she was white, but identifies as black, it would have sounded strange. Yeah. But people are like, OK. OK. But it sounds strange. But OK.

56:04 SPEAKER_00 Fine. You can use your white privilege to help another group. I'm not just saying the black community. Anything you can use your white privilege to do that. You don't need to have this whole life of a lie.

56:16 SPEAKER_02 I wonder what she's up to now. To be like the devil's advocate, though, like I hear what you're saying. So it is strange. Like people are complicated. People are complex. I do feel like sometimes people like to adopt a different culture for themselves. You get it with religion. People do that with like Hinduism. I'm so into yoga. I feel like I could have been a yogi. I want to now go to India and find myself. Like I feel like I need to align my chakras. They start to like adopt everything.

56:46 SPEAKER_00 Yeah, I think so. This is where people are probably going to say, hang on a minute. You can't pick and choose. I think to a certain extent, you can pick elements of your identity. For example, religion. But I think with race, for me, it's too loaded. Race, I don't think you can pick and choose. And again, it's arbitrary. I've made that up randomly. Someone else might think, no, hang on a minute. If you can pick and choose your gender nowadays, you can pick and choose your religion. Why can't I pick and choose my race? I'm sorry. I think race is off the limits. I don't think that's on the table. Although race is a social concept, it is still from somewhere. We haven't just woken up one day and said, you know, you're Nigerian and Pakistani. It's come from somewhere. It's come from our parents, our grandparents, as far as we can remember. And although I do have a hybrid identity, I'm British at the same time as being Pakistani. It's come from somewhere. I'm born and bred in the UK. I haven't made up that concept. I have a unique experience being both British and Pakistani. You have a unique experience being British, Nigerian, et cetera. It's not random. It's come from somewhere. So I think nowadays people just picking and choosing. I'm sorry. It doesn't really work that way. I find it quite disrespectful to someone who actually has those lived experiences. You're doing it because it's from a place of privilege. Yes, a place of privilege. Because you can do it. You can do it. You can do it. Because you can put on this hat today and name black. I'm going to take it off. I can't pretend to be white tomorrow. I visibly look different. You can't do the same. So it's like it's almost the people that have the most privilege that can pick and choose.

58:22 SPEAKER_02 Whereas there are certain groups who can't, even if they don't even identify as it themselves. Some people might say, I don't identify as this, but the whole world sees me as that. For example, from my experience, I have mixed race kids and I always say to my kids, you're black. And I get that they're half white. I get that. Or they look half white because I said half white, but their mom is half Venezuelan, half Italian. So like, well, how white are you? But on the face of it, yeah, okay. Let's say they're half white. But I say to them, when you go to the white community and you say to them, I'm white, they're going to say to you, are you? Yeah. But when you go to the black community and you say, I'm black, 99% of them are going to say, yeah, you're black. And the reason is because black people have a spectrum of color. It's not how you look on the outside. It's your cultural experience. Right. There's a black consciousness. Yeah. Which is why you can get a really light skinned black person. And that's how Rachel can be like, oh, yeah. And you can get someone who's really dark. Right. Because it's a big spectrum. To be honest, just like India and Pakistan.

59:24 SPEAKER_00 Yeah. As soon as you were just describing the spectrum of color in the black community, it's the same in Asia. You have someone that looks like a Shreer Rai, for example, green eyes, very pale skin. Then you will have someone that looks very similar to a black person. It's India, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Sri Lanka. Yeah, there is huge societies. 100%. So I didn't mean you should, I'm not trying to dictate how people should identify. I did not mean that at all. What I meant is I think it's important to embrace both sides of your identity, whatever they may be. Or three parts or four parts, whatever it is, embrace your whole self, your whole identity.

01:00:01 SPEAKER_02 I can understand that from someone being mixed race and I can understand that personally from being a child of migrants. And you're like, well, do I belong in this world where I'm British or do I belong?

01:00:11 SPEAKER_00 If I go to Nigeria, they'll be like, you're not Nigerian. Yeah, exactly. Come on, what are you like?

01:00:15 SPEAKER_02 You're an English boy. You're not Nigerian. I was going to ask you this actually. When you were in the Emirates, did you realize that you were British being in the Emirates?

01:00:23 SPEAKER_00 Because obviously with this ex-PAC community of British people there, could you identify with them very closely compared to, for example, there's a large Asian community in the Emirates? That's a very interesting question. I would say the thing that was very new to me was passport privilege. I had never considered the importance of a Western passport. It sounds ludicrous, but I literally did not think about the importance of a British passport and I never knew it was a thing. So you're paid basically based on your passport, right? It's quite controversial and it's quite sad as well actually because there are people that could be doing the same job as you in teaching, but they're paid significantly less because they have a passport from Egypt or they have a passport from Pakistan. And it would always make me feel, it shouldn't make me feel guilty, but it did make me feel guilty because I would be talking to some of the Pakistanis out there and there's a big Pakistani community, there's a big South Asian community that I knew in teaching. And then I also knew them through taxi drivers, for example, or shop workers, assistants, et cetera. And they are paid significantly less. And when you say you're Pakistani, that's where the whole thing, where are you really from, comes from, I think, because it's like, no, you're not because you have a different privilege. So I very quickly realized that I don't actually belong to the Pakistani community out there. I belong to the British Pakistani community. And that's because the British Pakistani community has a level of privilege, just like the black British community would have or any other community. For example, I don't consider myself an expert out there. I don't call myself an expert. I would call myself an economic migrant, but no one would call me that. They'll call me an expert. They'll call me an expert.

01:02:09 SPEAKER_02 I mean, it's a loaded term anyway, it's quite a racist term, but yeah.

01:02:12 SPEAKER_00 And again, I remember talking to a colleague out here before I was due to move. And then I was talking to her about the community out there and how, you know, 90% of the population is from all over the world. You're more likely to come across someone from a different country than you are the actual Emirates. And you don't really have that in other societies. But I remember talking to her and she said, OK, well, where are those people from? Are they experts or are they immigrants? And as a 25-year-old, I was sat there like, that's an interesting question. So I said to her, well, what's the difference? Because in my head, it's interchangeable, but it's not. An expert is someone who goes and works and lives abroad. An economic migrant is someone who is living abroad and goes and works. So it's very similar in terms of the definition. And then she said, no, like you're an expert because you're British. And then I went, OK, so what are my Pakistani counterparts then that are not British? They're the immigrants. So that was interesting. It's a very interesting term. And I think out there, you realize your privilege. You really do realize. Over here, you don't as much. In the UAE, you very quickly realize where your passport can get you. You know, I traveled so much when I was out there. I was so lucky because in terms of where it's situated, it's a major travel hub. So I was able to go to places like Zanzibar. I was able to go to Jordan, Lebanon, et cetera. And I never had to think twice about my visa. But then the friends that I had made outside of teaching, they've got Lebanese passports, Pakistani passports. It's different. So that's when I thought, oh, you don't have that problem in the UK because all my friends in the UK have a British passport. And I think out there, you do see the fact that whiteness is the epitome of success in the UK. It's not in your face. It's like you said earlier, it's a little bit more subtle. People understand that you're going to be called a racist or ignorant or bigoted or whatever it is. Over there, they're still learning a little bit.

01:04:06 SPEAKER_02 But they will say things that are what we would deem to be outrageous. In a way, I prefer that to be honest. I prefer it to just say it, right? Rather than pretending, you know. One last question because we've been going for a while, actually. So one last question. So sociologists look at how society works and the nature of society and our role in it. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but there's two kind of views. There's a view that society shapes us and there's a view that we shape society.

01:04:31 SPEAKER_00 Yeah. So that's a brilliant question. So with sociology, you have something called a micro level analysis research. That's looking at the individual. Then you have macro level analysis, which is looking at wider social structures, wider social institutions. I'll come on to that in a minute. In terms of perspectives, you have very different perspectives. So for example, you have the feminist perspective, the Marxist perspective, the functions perspective, the new right perspective, interactionism, so on. So many different perspectives. And that's what I love about sociology because I love playing devil's advocate quite a bit like you, to be fair. You've been playing devil's advocate quite a lot today. But in terms of looking at something in society, so I teach a topic called education. And within that topic, there's a subtopic called differential educational achievement. And you look at three groups. You look at social class, gender and ethnicity. Within ethnicity, statistically speaking, black boys are more likely to be excluded and expelled than any other ethnic group. It's intersectional because there's black males, working class black males in particular. We then look at all these different perspectives and how they view it. So, for example, I'll just pick on two perspectives. Marxists would say the reason why those black boys are expelled is because they happen to be working class. And the education system is set up to benefit what they call the bourgeoisie. So in Marxism, there's two social classes, the proletariat, the working class, the bourgeoisie, the upper class. And the education system is all about benefiting the bourgeoisie. When the proletariat step out of line, if you like, they are then sanctioned and punished. So those group of black boys that are more likely to be excluded than any other group is because they have not followed the rules and they're now punished and sanctioned. They're not conforming. They're not conforming, right? That's the reason. The new right, a guy called Charles Murray would say the opposite end of the spectrum. And it's very controversial. And again, sociology is controversial. Charles Murray would say black boys in the UK tend to come from a single parent family. Therefore, they're inadequately socialized. The reason why they are unruly in school is because they don't have a father figure or whatever it may be. They look up to certain boys in the community or they look up to certain boys in school. And then they're trying to get social status because they don't get it in the home. You're looking at the exact same thing. But in sociology, there are very different perspectives. And that's what I love. And you never give your own perspective. As I'm teaching, I never give my own perspective. The aim is for a student to choose a perspective. And it's great because you get to debunk so many myths, especially with things like Marxism and feminism, et cetera. Because I think a lot of people have quite outdated and simplistic views on what is a Marxist, what is a feminist. Feminists are burning their bras and going crazy or whatever because they focus on extreme feminists, radical feminists, not understanding that there's a spectrum. So that's why I find it interesting because I like looking at the same thing from a different lens. I like being challenged on my own view.

01:07:43 SPEAKER_02 I mean, it is good to be challenged on your view. Any way you can challenge your view is by having conversations, debating, going out and looking for information that counters your own view, falsification. Right. Karl Popper talked about if you think your view is right, find all the things that can falsify it. Yeah. And the less things you can find, then the more likely you're going to be right. But until you challenge it, you're never going to know. Unfortunately, we live in these echo chambers now and we have social media and the algorithms feed us what we want to listen to, what we like.

01:08:12 SPEAKER_00 And so our view is becoming narrower and narrower. Absolutely. And the problem is like with algorithms, you know, you could be strolling for hours on Instagram or whatever it may be. It's just feeding your ego, stroking your ego because you've followed a certain amount of pages. And I'm guilty of that as well. Like, I don't want to read the Daily Mail. I have no interest in that because I find it a very sort of racist tabloid. I have no interest and it's just nonsense for me. But at the same time, if I'm reading The Guardian all the time, I'm not getting anything else. So even for myself, I have to remind myself actually, you know, go and have a look at other tabloids because it is important to look at things from a different lens. It either strengthens your view or you think, actually, hang on, I might have missed something. And I think that's what unfortunately the young generation are not doing now. Right. So they just accept what they're told. They're not going out for fact checking things. They're just happy with what it said on X, Y and Z. So I'm taking that.

01:09:06 SPEAKER_02 We're all guilty of that now. I think obviously technology has allowed us to be kind of lazy, right? Okay, Farah, we've been talking. I actually don't know. We've been talking for two hours and 17 minutes. Wow. So we've been talking for a really long time. So it's been really, really interesting. And I'd say we've unpacked a lot, but we've unpacked actually a little bit in that lot that we've done. So you already said that sociology is broad. It's really broad and people are probably going to get like an idea of how broad it is now. But thank you for coming down and going into it a little bit. I'd like to do it again actually, because there's lots of things we haven't talked about, but otherwise we'd be here all night. But if people want to either follow your podcast that you had before, do you want to mention it again?

01:09:43 SPEAKER_00 So I would say to reach out, they can follow my podcast, although we're not active on it. It's still there. So it's at Ignorance is Bliss 2020. If your viewers have enjoyed what we've spoken about today, I think they'll very much enjoy some of my content so they could check that out.

01:09:59 SPEAKER_02 Cool. All right. Thank you. Thank you so much for the invite. It's been great. OK, guys, that was Farah Khan. As always, you can find more details about my guest in the show notes. If you like this episode, I really recommend you listen to episode 31, Headspace of NARS Neuro and episode 32, Awakening with Darren LeBaron. See you in a couple of weeks.