Growing Roots

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Uyi

Hey, guys.

Uyi

Welcome back to The Point of View. My name is Leah from time.

Uyi

I am honored to be joined today by Michael de Souza. Um, Michael created the famous and iconic Rasta Mouse series, and we got into so many different topics. Such an amazing chat. I really hope you enjoyed the show.

Uyi

All right. So how have you been, Michael?

Michael

Very good.

Uyi

Good.

Michael

I've been well, I've been working in schools again, which is good. I do workshops in schools.

Uyi

Yes. You're a children's book writer?

Michael

Yes.

Uyi

How long have you been writing for?

Michael

Officially? Properly, I would say since 2003. It's about a year before I published my first book.

Uyi

Yeah.

Michael

But I started getting into it from about 95, 96. Then I'm looking after my little daughter, and I just used to write little rhymes.

Uyi

When did you feel like now you're a writer?

Michael

Uh, well, it's taken a long time. I'm still working on it, to be honest.

Uyi

Okay.

Michael

Because I was caught up in doing one subject I did with Rusty Mouth here. So that's the first thing I dealt with. I wrote it in collaboration with the illustrator, uh, and then published it myself. So I never really saw myself as a writer as such. I just did this project and went with it. I think I'm only may be beginning to see it a bit more now, especially as I'm going towards my next project. I don't know. I don't think I do sufficient to say I'm, uh, necessarily a writer. I've written and I've been published and I've published. But to say writer, I think I've got to put a bit more time into it.

Uyi

Okay. Okay. But you published a series of books. You created this whole world, Ruster Mouse, which has been really successful in the children book world and actually in the children television series as well.

Michael

Uh.

Uyi

I would say that you're a writer because you've got all these books rostermaster is very well known. But then you say you don't really feel like a writer still not really.

Michael

Simply because for me to claim on something, I think I need to have done it a lot. I've had to study a lot, learn, grow, develop and deal with different aspects. Like, for instance, I would say definitely I'm a swimming teacher and a swimming consultant. I've been doing that since 1987. Would you say you're a swimming teacher? Yeah. Would you say you're swimming coach? Yeah. Would you say you're a consultant? Yes. Because I can talk about it in all sorts of angles. But writing is not like that yet. I love it. I enjoy it and enjoy getting the schools and the various places that I'll go. But I think I'll go give myself a couple more projects. Then I'll say that.

Uyi

So Rasta Mouse came out in 2003, right?

Michael

Yeah.

Uyi

That's like almost 20 years.

Michael

Amazingly amazing, right? Yeah.

Uyi

What do you think about it now? When you think about you created a character 20 years ago and people still identify and can see the character and enjoy the character. What do you think about it?

Michael

20 years on, 20 years on it's just a realization is dawning on me of the impact that it had on people, because as I'm out on the stall, people go past the stall. A lot of people always comment, many, many people. I'm talking, um, right across the board on our spectrum of people. And I'm talking about people with children, people without children, people with grandchildren, grandparents always comment and say, Boy, I remember that. I love, uh, that. So it's only now that I'm realizing, um, the full impact of Rusty Mouth.

Uyi

I guess, looking at like that, it's hit a few generations, really, because obviously 20 years, you're thinking, well, actually, there are people who knew it in the beginning of the Millennium and then there's people who knew it when it was 2010, and there's people who now are going into 2020. So you're hitting maybe two to three generations each way.

Michael

Yeah, it seems like I said, because I've been going into schools recently. Children ask questions, obviously, and they say, well, when did you first do this and do that? And I say, well, 2002. And they glaze over because they're thinking, wow, they weren't even born, but yet they're aware of it. And I think that the people, uh, that produced it made a brilliant job of it. And the BBC were brilliant. Cbds were brilliant in as much as they were very loyal to it, very loyal to the books. It didn't change much at all. I don't think it really changed, but in terms of the impact, I just think it's fantastic. Yeah, it's a great feeling.

Uyi

How did you come about with the idea of resting us in the first place?

Michael

Well, I was writing and I used to write things every day when I have my little daughter. She was born in 94. I used to write things all the time, and I wrote this poem about a mouse that lived in a Council house and all these things. He got kicked out of his house to live in a tent, and he basically used all his Wits to get back into the house. He went to his old house and the woman opened the door, says, he said, he's a handy mouse. What do you do? She says, Well, I repair all sorts of things in the house. I repair tables and chairs. My speciality is fixing under stairs. So she said to me, that's exactly what she needs, things like that. And it was just a simple poem about rustamus. Originally it's called Monte de Ruster Mouth. Then I just dropped it to say Rustam mouse. So that's how it came about, the original.

Uyi

When did he flesh out fully to be like, okay, here's Rust the mouse. Here are the characters.

Michael

This is the world in 2002. That's when I decided to write a book. So I wrote the book sell from Genevieve Webster. She was an illustrator, and it was taken up by a publishing house, Gerlain. They took it and they took it to Milan, and they took it to Bologna book fairs. But they didn't do very much and they weren't satisfied with their response. So, fortunately for me, they reverted the rights back to me. So when they reverted the rights back to me, which was within two years, normally, uh, customer leads it's two years. Sat down, Genevieve, and I said, Look, I want to publish it. Um, myself. She had experience working for publish for years, but I just said, Well, I'd like to do. I don't see how difficult it is. How difficult is it? You produce a book, send it off to the printers, and you've got your product. And that's what I did. So I set up a publisher. Now it's called Little Roots. That was my imprint for the first book, which is a crucial plan. We designed it ourselves, edited it, illustrate, design everything we did ourselves, send it to Singapore and printed $3,000, which I financed at my own pocket. 3000 books in the house. 14 pallets of books arrived, and I had to shift them all myself from the pavement. You can walk up the garden path to get them into the house. Yeah. This is in Water Morose. They walk up the garden path, then walk down a fairly long corridor and up a flight of stairs and put it in the box room. I did all of my own 14 pallets of books of books. Hardback, hardback, 20 books. But Thankfully, I was quite strong at the time. It wasn't a problem, and it was in my interest. I had to do it.

Uyi

You're motivated?

Michael

Absolutely, yeah.

Uyi

What did you think then, when you actually had the book, the final product. But now you're thinking, Now I need to shift these books.

Michael

I felt at the time I definitely be using some for promotion purposes. Uh, so I knew straight were prepared to give away? 500. If something doesn't happen. By the time you give away 500, I can't see much happening. So I wasn't really panicking in any way, simply because if I couldn't afford to do it, I wouldn't have done it. I believed in it. It was a good story. I thought the joints was great. I had a lot of faith in it. In 2002, I was ready because I shelved another project, which was Professor Splash singing swimming teacher. What got me to writing. Teaching. Swimming up locally at Kent Sports Center. This is my first job was with an independent school. But I was working with teachers, and they weren't coming up with a vibe that I like. They weren't making it a, uh, pleasant experience for the kids at all. For anybody. Primarily for the children. All the schools came here, all the state schools, all the private schools. They were there but the swimming lesson experience was a terrible one that I could see didn't look joyous in any way. That would be another way. That's got to be joyous. Beautiful. When you go to swim, it's a wonderful thing because I taught myself to swim.

Uyi

Oh, really?

Michael

Yeah, I taught myself wedding. I used to live around the corner. Swimming was a big part of our life. We used to go every Saturday. Sums up maybe Sunday, but we just got regular in the holidays nearly every day. My brother had my bread and couldn't swim petrified. And I just persevered until I taught myself. Cause, um, I've always had love for water programming. Lloyd Bridges. It was a skin diver. I love it every Sunday. I developed a real love for swimming. So when I went to Kensington Sports Center, I realized that, uh, my vocation was so easy, so easy. It's so pleasurable. I'm watching all these teachers and then I shouting and going on, and she's awful. When I'm listening to children, I've got a laugh and a joke and have a lot of fun because it's a lot of fear. My thing is I like to see children behave like children, I. E. Play about every opportunity, because that's where they learn. It may not be ideal for parents all the time. It makes it about when you want to be serious. But as part of growing up, they're not mature, they immature. The babies. So if you go to an environment where they can express themselves and join us, they will express themselves and they will learn. They will take things on board. So to me, I said, the best results is to make the children happy around the swimming pool. Pack of fun. That was my approach to it. I was help. Ben created this character called Professor Splash, and I was helping him on getting it out there, out of being my body. I even produced a mock up book, wrote a story about Professor Splash and his nemesis, Rosemarylda. That's what really got me into writing.

Uyi

What happened to Professor Splash then?

Michael

Um, well, I revisited it last, uh, year. I've nearly finished story recently. It's got a contact with some perspective illustrates, because I want to get it out. Professor Splash, he said, in this little tropical island and all the swimming lessons going on in this island and it's all fun and adventures. The first story is just called A Swimming Lesson. And basically, it's a different kind of book. It's a story about this little boy that's scared Rosemarlda, petrifies him even more. Professor Splash takes him off and says, Right, let's go and do what we've got to do. So basically, you're going through all the elements, gaining the water, acclimatizing yourself, putting your face in the water, playing bubbles, making shapes, floating, and then doing a stroke. And it's going to be in the four strokes. The, uh, first book is about the crazy crocodile, which is a stroke. Anyone who's listening, we're not going to really say exactly what it is, but see if you could decipher it. This is how you do the stroke. You bend your arm like a Boomerang, stretch it like an orangutan, kick a while, turn and smile. That's the crazy crocodile.

Uyi

A little Riddle.

Michael

Well, there you go. Given things like that to children, they're not familiar with it. You're not telling them the crawl of this to that that's tailor made for them.

Uyi

You're making it accessible to them, right?

Michael

Absolutely.

Uyi

Speaking in terms that they're going to understand and make it relatable to them.

Michael

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And that was my main aim. And the thing is writing, the one thing I realized I want to do with my writing as well is do black mixed characters. Any mix doesn't matter because there's so much mix these days. So once you do mix, people are going to be included because they're all mixed.

Uyi

It's getting more and more so because you mentioned you got a book that you're working on now. Little Brother.

Michael

Little Brother is my newest little character. He's a six year old word Smith. The basic introduction to him is this. It's called The Ballad of Little Brother. On the day that he was born, he started with a rhyming yawn. When he reached the age of one, he was rhyming son with fun. When he reached the age of two, he was rhyming blue with glue. When he reached the age of three, he was rhyming flea with knee. When he reached the age of four, he was rhyming floor with door. When he reached the age of five, he was rhyming jive with dive. Now he's reached the age of six, his brain is working very quick. He can make an instant rhyme, any topic, any time. So that's the basic of him in a rhyming form. So he's a 45 page paperback, about 30 beautiful illustrations. But the basic thing about that is to encourage children to improve their vocabulary on a daily basis. And my plan is to get it out this year and tend to do a limited edition, about 2000 books.

Uyi

So when I was a kid. So one thing that stands out to me about Ruster Mouse is, uh, the background of the character. Obviously it's called Ruster, um, Mouse. And obviously the language that's used in the book. When I remember when I was a kid, I didn't think about it then, but there weren't many books that had these characters who I could identify with.

Michael

Absolutely.

Uyi

And now I have kids, my kids. I make a conscious effort to buy them books and make them watch shows that they can relate to the characters in the books and the shows, obviously, now there's a bigger range anyway. But when Rastermus came out, that was almost groundbreaking and especially for the UK, because I can't remember many books where there are all these characters or a whole world that was built around this particular demographic, and it's an interesting story.

Michael

Well, the thing is, roast the mouth of the first black character on national television, the first hero. Black hero. You might come a little bit after what's his name? Iris Elba.

Uyi

Yes.

Michael

But outside that there was nothing. And you said all the characters that you could see. Yes, but they were mixed. Because you got Brown mice, you got Gray mice, you got white mice, you got all kind of mice.

Uyi

Exactly.

Michael

But the main thing, the overriding thing, is to know that main protagonist Caribbean, whatever heritage that ever I can relate to. It's another thing I wanted to do with Rusty Mouth because I wanted to get it into the people of England psyche that you've now got a group, uh, of people. I've got a Caribbean African background, but a well versed in English culture as well, because you grow right up. All my schooling was in labor growth, and we grew up with lots and lots of different types of people. Definitely the time when I was in Beverton, they were showing Gollywood and all this on the jar and all these kind of runnings. And we had a head teacher, and he was awful. And he read, uh, us this thing called Epami Nondes. And I think Epami Nondesce was American based, African American, but really negative stereotype that the mum would say every book, oh, you pan me knowing that you ain't got the sense she was born with a little idiot that don't work. So that's all we do from black but grown up. There's nothing at all, as you pointed out, we've got the characters. You've also got the substance that everyone can relate to. Uh, because the universal message, that's inclusive. It's not like what I've had to grow up within yourself. We've had to accept other people's things. You might even have your child really loving Cinderella. You know what I mean? You say, Well, yeah, there's nothing wrong with Cinderella. Love Cinderella, but love Ola or love whatever as well. Why should one group be more loved and have more affection than another, um, group of people? It doesn't make sense 100%.

Uyi

I agree with you, because these things, they are subliminal. As a child, you don't pay much attention to it. The messaging. Right, like the programming, the conditioning. But then as you get older, you do kind of like, uh, now I understand what was happening there. Uh, come these heroes don't look like me. How come the baddies look like me? Do you know what I mean?

Uyi

Absolutely.

Uyi

How come there's no positive characters that I can talk about? Obviously, things are better now. And I think a large part is obviously down to Ruster Mouse, because again, I can't remember anything in the UK earlier than Ruster Mouse, where there was this black character, this ethnic character with Afro Caribbean roots. I can't remember anything for children. If I think about anything from my childhood, I can remember who was a positive black character. It was Mr. T, right?

Michael

Uh, yeah.

Uyi

And that was American. And he was one character out of like a team. Uh, the ateam.

Michael

Yeah.

Uyi

Uh, and he was just one character. He just happened to be the most popular character. And that's who in the UK we could resonate. There's a hero, the black hero is Mr. T. Or there's nothing else I can remember for kids. And now with my children, there is a range, there's a range of books, there's a range of characters, films. Uh, we have Disney Plus and you talk to Cinderella. It's hard watching some of the old movies. I used to love these films and I watched the old films and I thought, man, these films are stereotypical. You don't relate to them very well. I watched Peter Pan maybe about a year ago, two years ago with my kids, I was like, this is a terrible film, really. The message in it.

Michael

Yeah, in the movie.

Uyi

I'm not talking about the book, but in the movie of Peter Pan, the animated Disney version, when you watch it, it's not good. There's a portrayal of Native American Indians.

Michael

Teach them Pale Face Brothers, all about Red Man.

Uyi

Uh, good.

Speaker I

This should be most enlightened.

Uyi

In fact, what Disney does now is now when they have these old films, they put a little warning in to say, yeah, they put a warning to say, Actually, these aren't the views that represent Disney today, because they're conscious that actually there's a lot of racist tropes in there. Even the girls get treated really badly in Peter Pan. But when I was a kid love it, I loved it. And I didn't know any better. Right. But then when you're older, you're like, Actually, that's not the best way to educate or entertain a child. But today, now my kids have a whole plethora of shows, books they can read and they can love, you know what I'm saying? So it was amazing to see that you had a character that did so well and people could see themselves in that character, not just from the black community, but everyone as well, uh, because of the values of the character, but had such a positive impact. But at the same time, it, uh, did celebrate the fact that this character's roots are in African and Caribbean culture as well as the UK culture.

Michael

Absolutely, because that was my background. I was born in Trinidad, came to England when I was about seven, nearly eight. And then the rest of my life, I've been in England, but we had a strong Caribbean route. My house was very much Trinidadian household, quite traditional, food wise. I was socialized family. And you never forgot you were from Trinidad. Calypso music, which I love, reggae music. But then I, uh, was also learning about British culture, playing football. Basically, it was a celebration of I'd been fortunate enough to experience. Uh, because I've seen a lot. When I look at it from 19 to 60, if you look at all the generations that come below, I've seen much more than that. I'm not saying I've seen the most in the world. I've lived it. I've lived it. And also, as I said, I've been very much part of British culture. Played football. So it caught me. You want Mickey Son and Swiss businesses. I've gone through that. And I switched and started dealing with Ruster FarEye because I could see that it wasn't accepted. You could be the biggest, lower binding system in the world. If you're black do that. When I start dealing with rust of fire, you get a sense of pride, of self. You're looking at black people and you're looking at the hair. Because at the time when you dread up, you don't just go hairdressers and dread up. You could be afraid. Uh, next day you got dread. And then days. It wasn't working. Every time when I dread up, you got to take the time and you let it lock itself up. So when I first idea with Russell, uh, fire and talking about the consciousness, it really appealed to me. Self sufficiency, peaceful nature, the nourishment of sustenance, like iToF food. Everything was very appealing to me. That's what attracted me to it. Took me a bit of time before I said, I'm going to lock up, because once she locks up, you ain't taken off. In my mind, there's no way I'm taking off. No locks. So from, uh, the minute, um, I dread up, never cut my hand, ever. I dread up, I think.

Uyi

43 years ago, look at that.

Michael

And then imagine this. Right at the time, I was working in the factory as an engineer, um, before I was leaving the job, and his fellows used to say to me, um, don't even move. That's the thought they're giving me by any joke. Unless I decided to dread up now. So, uh, I'm not cutting my head at all. I'm not combing it at all. Just if I left, uh, the gym to say, mate, would you dab? You're not, uh, mate, because it starts to dread up. You don't have to come here. What do you know about exactly? So that's when there was a realization that's not dread up and got people conscious, not necessarily, uh, political. We've been affected by politics all the time. That's what I did. There was a difference. So I wanted to have an externally different expression. But internally just a human being like anyone else.

Uyi

I relate to what you're saying. You've seen a lot of things that I haven't seen. I've seen things that my kids haven't seen. I grew up in that area as well, so I've seen things not in here, in Grove. And even then, it was a different time. But then I'm conscious. Obviously, raising my kids, my kids are mixed. And I remember having a conversation. You try and sow seeds from a young age to prepare them for life. It's very important for me as a parent to surround them with positive role models so they can have pride in who they are. Which when I was a kid, even though my parents were telling me, be positive and be proud of who you are, there was nothing I could see to give me pride of, oh, you're proud of this? Because everything that you see is pretty much we're going to learn about black history. We're going to learn about slavery and segregation. That's all we got to learn about. That's all you guys have to contribute. You have to unlearn what you've learned because you've been conditioned. And so I'm aware of that with my own kids, okay? I need to raise them and make sure they understand where they come from, even though they are mixed. So I'd say to my kids from a young age, look, you kids are black. And some people, yeah, but they're mixed, okay? They are mixed. Their mother's white. But when people look at them, they don't think, oh, that person is half white. They just think that person is black. So I say to my kids, look, the perception people have of you is you're black. The black community on the whole will accept you. The white community will always say, Are you mixed? And I remember my youngest daughter, she was watching Frozen, uh, and she's like, Daddy, I want to be like, Anna. I want to be like Cinderella. I don't like my hair. Uh, I don't like my skin. Why would you not like your hair and your skin? It's beautiful. And the funny thing is, now there are other characters. There's like Moana, and there are characters you can interview. But for her, she's like, I want to be the classical Disney Princess. The other day we watched Black Panther. I've had to wait 40 years before I can watch a film. Like, oh, there's a really big black superhero, and he's the main character in the movie. He's not the psychic or anything. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So you talked about the gollywog. You have to be of a certain age to even know what a gollywalk is.

Michael

Yeah.

Uyi

You know what I mean? Yeah. Because there are people here who will be listening to what's a Gollywalk?

Michael

I need to sing it. Sing. Look for the Golly. The golly on the jar.

Uyi

And I remember as a kid, it was still, uh, there until I think, the 90s on The Jar. On the Jam jar. If someone doesn't know what a gollywalk is, it was this really caricature black character with big lips.

Michael

Black face, uh, red lip and biggest of eyes.

Uyi

Exactly like a picky hair.

Michael

Um, yeah. You might like to explain to people.

Uyi

Like, a very stereotypical view of black people's hair as, like, messy and not kind of clean and combed. The only other character image I can relate to. The Gollywood is the minstrel.

Michael

Exactly.

Uyi

And that's what the Gollywood was based on. The minstrel, which was this caricature of black people that you would see in American theaters and American movies where they basically Blackfaced themselves. And most people know what blackface is derogatory. Yeah, exactly.

Michael

It's terrible. The thing is, right globally is a lack of respect for black people, stuff like that. Well, no, because we're all part of the patchwork, which is humanity. A smile is a smile. It doesn't matter who smiles. If you see a smile, you can relate to it. If you see someone in tears, you can relate to it doesn't matter what's that. I don't know what that is. When you're going back to Frozen with your children and all that. I've got two daughters. Right. We talk about role models, and first and foremost, as a parent, you've got to be the role model as a parent. Sometimes it's just incidental, especially in a mixed relationship. White, black, whatever. Everybody's representing their self. They're representing themselves as people. So the children say, mom is a cool person, my dad's a cool person. That's it. None of them is extreme. Everyone is open, and that's all you have to do. So with my daughter, the younger, and I was just being around her shaped her up to who she is on the surface level.

Uyi

You're right. At the end of the day, we're all human. It just happens that some of us have more melanin in our skin than others. Right. The people who are closer to the equator, well, they just happen to be darker in it.

Michael

Why?

Uyi

Because there's more sun, uh, on the surface level. So for me, with my kids, I want you to know who you are. I don't want people to tell you who you are. You're going to be who you are as you grow up. As a child, you're going to grow into an adult, and you're going to decide ultimately what you become. I'm not a religious person. I love religions, but I don't follow a religion. So I always say to my kids, look, there's all these different religions, and we can talk about all of them in depth. Hinduism and Islam and Christianity and Rastafari. We can talk about them in depth. I don't mind. My kid will go to school and she'll see a girl with the hijab and be like, oh, she's a Muslim. Am I Muslim? You're not Muslim. Am I a Christian? You're not Christian. Your family were Christians, but, um, I haven't raised you to be a Christian. What am I? When you're old enough, you can decide what you want to be. It's up to you. So I'm very conscious they're going to grow up and be who they want to be. I don't want my child to be like, oh, yeah, I'm white. And then a kid says to them, no, you're not. Do you know what I mean. Yeah, you can be who you want to be. Um, but ultimately you are black. And I know it's a term that's been placed on you, but this is how we identify. And I know you are mixed, but you will be accepted by this community. Uh, and that community, as sad as it is to say, will not accept you. If my kids were to go to the Carnival and. But I come back, no one would be like, no, you're not. They'd be like, yeah, of course you are. You know what I'm saying? If they went to somewhere else, they went to some cheese festival in Yorkshire and said, I'm white. They'd be like, Are you nutcase? I'm, um, aware of that. And I want my kids to be prepared for that rather than it's a shock, which is why I tell them, Listen, this is who you are now, because I don't want them to get shocked by, oh, you know what, dad? I said this in secondary school, and they said to me, no, I'm not, because the world sees you differently.

Michael

The thing is, right? With your children and my children, they're what you regard as obviously mixed. This is why more would embrace dark skinned people. If we're going to call any race, let's just say we're African. Forget black. And why forget black? Because you got some Sri Lankan people that's darker than me and you.

Uyi

That's true.

Michael

So it's not the dark Brown makes you go, no, it's not. And that's why we have to question it now.

Uyi

Yeah.

Michael

So it's not about that.

Uyi

I agree with you, and this is why. That's why a mixed race child can be black. It's not about how dark your skin is at all. Black is a consciousness and a culture. It's not about the color of your skin because, as you said, uh, there are light skinned black people who are black. Both parents are black, but they just happen to be light skinned. And there are Indians, there are Arabs who are darker. There are Sicilians who you'd be like, well, that person could pass off as black easily. My wife is half Venezuelan. Her family from Venezuela. You go to Latin America. It's a confusing thing because you say to someone, oh, are you black? I'm not black. I'm Caffeine ledger. I'm coffee with a bit of milk. Do you, um, know what I mean?

Michael

Yeah.

Uyi

Because they don't view race in the same way that Europeans or Americans view it. Northern Europeans and Americans view it. And this idea of blackness pretty much came from America. Essentially, there is a spectrum of racial tones. It's got nothing to do with the actual color of your skin.

Michael

The hue has got nothing to do with the hue.

Uyi

Absolutely nothing at all. You're right. You could say African, but Africans are different, completely different. You go to North Africa and you go to South Africa. They're completely different people. They look completely different. They speak a completely different language. They have completely different religions, and they have a completely different culture.

Michael

But the one thing you can say say you got a white racist. There's no way it's going to differentiate between Egyptian and you and me. No, they're not going to do it. So let's just talk about what it really means. So what I think needs to happen with black people and African people with African bloodline children is to be proud of being African. And we're so proud of Africa. And you're talking about any part in Africa you want. Any part could be Algeria, it could be Sudan, it could be Mali, it could be Ethiopia, it could be an African. Yeah, I am. No matter where I am, I'm an African, and that's it. So one thing that irritates me is the African attitude to Caribbean and Caribbean attitude to Africa in a lot of cases is so ridiculous. It's just a matter of divided rule and people buy into it.

Uyi

Yeah. Do you think it's changing from my generation, we were all black. We would hang out together, we play together. We grew up in the same area. So our parents wouldn't mix. If you were from Trinidad and my parents, Nigeria, they would never mix. No, but us, we would mix. So do you think it's changing now? Because obviously now I have kids.

Michael

Well, let's say for my generation, I'd like to know what attitude a lot of people have. I got a bridging that is very negative about African people. But I'm saying, well, when you put a sort of negative view on them, you put it on yourself. I hear a lot of people talk about Black History month, and, oh, God, it's only a month. And it's only lucky it's a, uh, month because it was no month before he got that. And just then it's up to you now to utilize it. And equally now contribute to life on your day to day running that you leave in your Mark, you leaving your legacy.

Uyi

I think it's changing because again, I think now the African and Caribbean communities are closer than they were before. And that might be surprising to people who are not black, but they weren't close very far apart. The African community looked down on the Caribbean community, and the Caribbean community looked down on the African community.

Michael

Absolutely.

Uyi

But it's funny now because now, even if you look at the entertainment industry, look at music, the communities are mixing where they didn't before. Absolutely. Afro beats, which is huge now. Yes, it was huge in Africa, obviously, Calypso and Socalled, huge in Caribbean communities, but not huge in African communities. But now there is this mix from the Caribbean side. There's a pride now because I talked about Black Panther came out. Mansa Musa was a very famous African King of his time, uh, the richest King on Earth.

Speaker C

In 1324, the city of Cairo was taken by storm by one of the most onspiring sites that citizens had ever seen. Marching through its winding streets was an entourage of thousands of African soldiers, courtiers, traders, scholars and slaves, all laden and gold, horses and camels and gold leafing on their fur. Vast amounts of riches that were handed up to the poor and traded for goods. So much gold was handed out that the chiral economy crashed and would not recover for ten years. At the helm, sitting on a gold throne holding a gold staff, was their leader. Why they believed to be the richest human in the history of the world. Mansa Musa, the Emperor of Mali in the era of Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Wall Street and Big Tech. It is hard to fathom a more prosperous time in human history. However, many believe Lens and Musa's wealth outdoes that of all modern billionaires.

Speaker G

Musa was the kind of the crowning jewel, so to speak, of a long lineage of West African Imperial rulers. Um, depending on who's doing the estimating, uh, people will suggest that his net worth, adjusted for inflation, is 400 billion or 500 billion or 600 billion. People don't actually know.

Uyi

Yes, he had so much wealth that when they look at old European documents, he's drawn on the maps and surrounded by gold. But they don't tell you about this King who lived in Africa, who the European Kings wanted to be as rich as him. They don't tell you about that when they say it's a tribe. It's not a tribe. 10 million people was not a tribe. That's a nation of people. Whereas people are like, oh, I didn't think it was that. If it was like 1000 people in a village, it's like, no, that's not it. That's the narrative you've been told. It's like me, uh, saying, Well, English people are a tribe. I know I better not a tribe. But that's what you're saying when you look at Africa and you think tribal, they were kingdoms.

Michael

Yeah. Because I think what's affected that is that short period in history of slavery. That's the one you got to overcome.

Uyi

Uh, and it was a short period. I liked what he said that because it's actually a tiny period of human history.

Michael

Absolutely. That's why we've had to talk about Black Lives Matter, regardless of the movement. And the organization always saying, yes, it matters. I don't follow the movement, particularly at all. And people say all lives matter, but we know that. But you don't know that.

Uyi

Exactly.

Speaker D

They don't tell you Black lives don't matter. That's not what they say. That's not the argument. Uh, they hit you with that slick shit. Like, All Lives Matter. Really? Semantics. That would be like if your wife came up to you and was like.

Uyi

Do you love me?

Speaker H

And you were like.

Speaker D

Baby, I love everybody.

Michael

What are you talking about?

Speaker D

I love all God's creatures. What are you saying? You're no different. Why do black people always have to get over shit so quickly? Thanks, black lady. Why do we got to get over shit every time we bring some shit up? Slavery. Oh, that was 400 years ago.

Speaker C

Uh, segregation.

Speaker D

You guys got Black History Month out of it. Come on. We gave you February police shooting. That was two weeks.

Michael

Come on.

Speaker C

You still still.

Uyi

911.

Speaker D

Oh, never forget that's. Why this September, I'm getting a Tshirt that says all buildings matter.

Michael

I want to see how that works.

Uyi

And some people generally don't see it, because when they live in their life, it never happens to them.

Michael

That's exactly it. But then you have to study history. Yeah, we've got to study history and all type of history. The history of the Earth. People are people. People need to realize that more. Forget all this nationalistic, uh, stuff. Realize that we are all human beings with all type of interests. And that's, uh, the most important thing. For instance, people hear me speak in Englishman and ask me Where you from. And I say, Well, Portobello Road originally not Portobello Road. They're not accepting it.

Uyi

Yeah, I have that as well. So, again, it's something like my wife doesn't understand that people say, Where are you from? Say, I'm from London. Um, she goes, Why don't you tell them where you're from? I know. And she knows what they mean. And I said, but why is it not good enough for me to just say, I'm from London? Because what they want to hear is, oh, you're from Africa. You know what I'm saying?

Michael

Let's say what they mean.

Uyi

They don't say that.

Michael

Who are you to come tell me and question me about my origin? What's your origin? What gives you the right sometimes? What gives you the right to even question me?

Uyi

The funny thing is, to my other half, she's half Venezuelan, she's half Italian.

Michael

Right.

Uyi

When you look at her, she looks like she's from here. From England.

Michael

Yeah.

Uyi

So no one says to her, Where are you from? Uh, no, they never say it to her. They accept it. Unless they see her surname or they hear us speak in Spanish. They accept it. But me, they'll ask me, So where are you from? And the honest answer is, I'm from here. But what you want to know is where my parents are from. When I, um, say to people, I'm from here, I'm from the UK. I know. I see the look on their face. They're not happy with the answer. Um, but where are you really from?

Michael

Imagine my grandchildren. I got two grandchildren. Dear mom, my daughter is mixed Trinidadian, Syrian. Dear dad, uh, is English white. So I say, Where are you from? What? I'm English. No. Where's your mom from? She's English. Where's your dad from? He's English.

Uyi

Yes.

Michael

And how far do you want to go back then? My whole family tree. How I deal with it is to say, to people. You don't have the right to ask me that. And how is that relevant? How is that relevant for me? And you converse in what's the relevant?

Uyi

It's not relevant at all. I agree with you. And it's something that if you're not an ethnic minority, you don't experience it or a certain type of minority. So this is where, for example, you get a Polish person who has emigrated to the UK in the nineties. They've had their children in 2010. Their children are never going to be asked where they're from. No. Because they look like someone who's from the UK.

Michael

Yeah.

Uyi

Even though their parents came as migrants.

Michael

It'S when it's obvious. Because we got a void. Accepting people, putting you in a box.

Uyi

The narrative that you're being told.

Michael

Yes. And come talk to you how they want. Because you're black and that's stupid. People come up and ask you about if you know about weed. Yes.

Uyi

Again, this is something that you would not have experienced if you're not, uh, black.

Michael

No.

Uyi

Whereas I've experienced that loads of times.

Michael

Cool. And it must be one of the furthest string from your life. It's got nothing to do with your life. Because I see you with your children now, your family. What's that all about? Again, what gives you the right? And the thing that gives you the right is the value that people put in their self and how they undervalue you if you choose to take it on board, people placing you where they want to place you.

Uyi

Yeah.

Michael

This is why I think it goes back to your children. They've got to have a sense of pride. They've got a sense of pride. They've got to be properly educated, learned to think, reason things out, be proud of who they are as people. Don't let anybody put them down, no matter who they are. It doesn't matter what people say. They pass you on a passport. Why don't you just admit who you are? I got black bloodline. I've got Arab bloodline. Just say that wherever you go. Because I think a lot of black people, we need to just come up and say more that we're people of the world. When I went Gambia, I was a patron of a charity. And we built a school, we built a community center and we put a roof on an orphanage. Uh, so I have to go there quite regularly. Uh, I have to go every three months, fundraiser, and then we go over there. That's the only time in my life I didn't even study my color. You wake up every day. People don't even let you study that you're black at all. You go to a shop, you get treated proper, get on the path. They don't even say nothing about black. You don't hear that for the whole day. I can't say that was the same. When you go to the Caribbean, I got treated. You're very much aware when you're dark from when you're light, you get different treatments.

Uyi

They treat you differently.

Michael

And the, uh, attitude is different.

Uyi

Yeah.

Michael

As always, when I used to go to Italy and they're talking about this, and I said the same thing. I said, If Michael Jackson turn up, you can't worry about that. If he's black or not. Michael Jordan, that's your status and the power and influence. That's what it's about.

Uyi

Do you ever watch Spike Lee's film, do the Right Thing?

Michael

Yeah, man, I loved it.

Uyi

It was a great film, right? Bad film, especially for its time. I was like, wow, I've never seen a film like that when I was a kid. But I remember there's a scene with Spike Lee and John Torotoro and the restaurant in it.

Michael

Yeah.

Uyi

If you haven't seen the film, Spike Lee, he lives in very mixed communities. New York. So there's black, African Americans. Um, there's Latinos, his girlfriend's Latino, Puerto Rican, American. There's Italian Americans all in the same area, the Koreans. And there's a lot of tension. There's a lot of racial tension in that area, this melting pot. So Spike Lee works as a pizza delivery guy, and he works for this Italian pizza shop. And the Italian Americans, who are a minority group themselves in America, have this really derogatory view of black people. They're French. All these stereotypes and racial slurs. Yet the people they're selling to are minorities. That's how they're making their money in that community. And Spikely, there's a scene where he speaks to John Toro.

Speaker E

Thank you.

Uyi

Johnson.

Speaker H

Who's your favorite movie star?

Speaker E

Who's your favorite rock star?

Speaker C

Prince. Your Prince was Bruce. Prince.

Michael

Bruce.

Uyi

Peanut.

Speaker E

Uh, all you ever talk about is nigga. This nigga. All your favorite people are so called niggas.

Michael

Just magic.

Speaker E

80 Prince. I'm not niggas. I mean, they're not black. Let me explain myself.

Speaker I

They're not really black.

Speaker D

They're black, and they're not really black.

Speaker C

They're more than black. It's different.

Uyi

Yes.

Speaker D

To me.

Speaker E

See how deep down the Sun I think you wish you were black. Laugh if you want to. Your hair is kinky than mine. What does that mean? And you know what they say about dark Italians. You know, I've been listening.

Uyi

He surpassed it for them.

Michael

Yeah. And this is it. The respect is for wealth. Look how quick people talk about you when you fall from Grace, when you're on the rocket going up, people going on. But when the capsule is falling down, now you're on your own.

Uyi

Yeah, that's true.

Michael

You're just on your own in that sea. So people protect people who got money because it's in the interest. You could go back to say, Michael Jackson.

Uyi

Yeah.

Michael

People love Michael Jackson. They used to really Revere him and all this sort of business. Right?

Uyi

100%. Yeah.

Michael

I couldn't get away from the fact he was just a talented human being. But as a human being, nonetheless, people talk. We got a vested interest in talking like that. One thing that, you know, definitely didn't have to boost up, um, people still want it today is Bob Marley's music.

Uyi

Bob Marley is more than his music. Uh, though Michael Jackson, he was just about his music. Muhammad Ali was not just about the boxing.

Michael

That's right.

Uyi

Bob Mile is the same. He wasn't just about the music. And I think that's transcended geographically and generationally. That's why I think it resonates with people. Bob Molly is just like this huge icon. Other than his songs. What are you going to say about Michael Jackson? In fact, people don't want to talk about Michael Jackson other than his songs controversial. But with Bob Miley, they're like, well, his spirituality, his politicism. I think he's one of the most recognizable people in the world.

Michael

Definitely.

Uyi

You've got Jesus, you've got Buddha, you got Bob Marley. People recognize you can go anywhere instantly. I know who that is.

Michael

Bob definitely had a message to people over. Definitely world over.

Uyi

Bob, obviously. Then he became a roster. He didn't start as a roster, and then he started to follow Raster Far. Right. And interesting, because we talked a little bit about Malcolm as well, and his impact on the world started off as a Nation of Islam, and he became bigger than the Nation of Islam. The link is that Malcolm X's parents were Garbaites.

Michael

Yes.

Uyi

And the Garbage Acts had a huge influence on the Rustoparai in terms of their political thinking. A lot of people who do look at they call it Rusterianism, which is not what you're supposed to call it. They don't look at the political, spiritual side of it. All they see is the locks and smoking weed and listening to reggae. They don't understand. Actually, there's a philosophy, there's a spirituality, and there's a political side to it that was controversial in the Caribbean.

Michael

They rejected it. The thing is this, right? As you say, Garbia, this is where I believe the confusion came in. Gabriel was obviously pride of being Africa and doing all the things to be an upright citizen, ie. The way you present yourself, the way that you look after your body externally, internally, what you eat, and I express how you educate yourself. That was Garvey's. Where the crossover came was when the interpretation from the Bible of, uh, Celestiae. So some people looked in the Bible and saw the King of Africa, crowning King, and that is the God. And some people embrace that, and they believe that. But the foundation is the garbage teaching, because they put a, uh, religious aspect to it, which is going in the Bible and discovering His Majesty. So that's why sometimes you get confused. Some people, to be honest.

Uyi

A lot of people don't know about the Garvey side at all. And a lot of people don't even know about the Christian side of Rustopharai. If you said it's a Christian, faith based religion, people say, Is it? Yeah, it is. If you said they believed that Selassie was the Messiah. A descendant, the King of Kings. Is he? Even if you say to people, the oldest Christian Church in the world was in Ethiopia, was it? Yes.

Michael

Well, yeah, because the affiliation of the Rust of Fire is affiliated to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Yeah, it's very, very Christian.

Uyi

Oldest eat our food and Leviticus. It's a Jewish book in the Old Testament, which has all the rules of what you need to follow. And that's what the strict Rustifier would follow.

Michael

Yeah.

Uyi

And people say, really? I had no idea. I think they look at it in a very superficial surface level. They just see their hair, they see smoking weed, and they, uh, see the music. They don't understand what's going on beneath the surface at all.

Michael

No, they don't know. They didn't understand how it emanated.

Uyi

No.

Michael

People just think pouring a big hat wherever a golden green scarf. You're a Ruster.

Uyi

Yeah.

Michael

It don't work like that. It doesn't work like that. Like you said, from a political point of view. Well, for instance, Russell's will say they're not political, although they were very heavily affected by politics. But I think why they said that is because I think they were so poor, so they didn't have the power to, uh, really do much to change their own lives. Bob Mighty, never mind anybody's life. Yeah, Bob was different.

Uyi

He was definitely political.

Michael

Well, the thing is.

Uyi

I mean, he wouldn't say he was, but he definitely was. He was making statements. He was even challenging the music industry.

Michael

Well, yeah, because the thing is this. You question everything if you're not treated right. So people could call it political if you want. But he wasn't dealing with no shenanigans. He was dealing with fairness for everybody, for everybody. He said, wake up and live get upstander.

Uyi

Yeah.

Speaker E

Have you made a lot of money out of your music? How much is a lot of money to you?

Speaker C

That's a good question.

Speaker E

Have you made, say, millions of dollars?

Michael

No.

Speaker I

Are you a rich man?

Speaker E

What do you mean, rich?

Speaker I

What do you mean? You have a lot of possessions.

Speaker E

A lot of money in the bank position, making rich. I don't have that type of richness. My richness is life.

Michael

But he wasn't political.

Uyi

But then also, when his lyrics are quoting Garvey phrases, emancipate yourself from slavery, none by yourself can free your mind.

Michael

Yeah, but that's not political.

Uyi

But Marcus Garvey was political.

Michael

No, but you see where I would disagree with that?

Uyi

Okay.

Michael

Is that Garvey, to me, his consciousness and his level was to just elevated people. The black people, they, uh, could see they left Jamaica. They were suffering. America see even more suffering. So he didn't have that political party as such. He was creating, like, a cooperative that people can rise up, be mobile, Uplap shops.

Uyi

Yes.

Michael

Go into law, be doctors. Do this, uh, do that.

Uyi

Also invest in your own community.

Michael

Well, absolutely. But that's not political.

Uyi

Create the idea of a black consciousness, the black Atlantic.

Michael

Yeah.

Uyi

And then ultimately. Well, actually, we should return to where we are respected and loved and originated from.

Michael

Absolutely.

Uyi

But that is challenging the political status, uh, quo.

Michael

You might say that, but then you just say, I want to go back where you took me from. Yeah. I was doing my own thing. That one says political. You see, when you have to fight back for your rights, it might appear to be political. So I would never view Garvey or Bob as political in any way, because their main concern was initially for dear people and then people. Then it goes back to my fundamental message of Rustamas and creating it because you got a black character that represents a universal message.

Uyi

Yeah.

Michael

Because it wasn't just for black people. Yes. It was, uh, for the little children. Oh, yeah. I love that. I could relate to that. But when you hear the message now, when you go into it. No, we're talking about everybody. I don't know if you know, but we got 75 characters in rostermouth. 75, including Jimmy H. Jim, Spike, Cheese, filmmaker.

Uyi

You got Bag of Tea.

Michael

We got Professor Bran Stone. We got lots of people. Yeah. We got lots of things. Because then people might say, I'm political. I'm not political at all. I don't even vote.

Uyi

Essentially. You're talking about human rights, right? These people were talking about universal human rights.

Michael

Yes.

Uyi

You've hit a lot of deep points just to talk about your career as a swimming coach. So I'm not a great swimmer.

Michael

Right.

Uyi

It's very common in the black community, in the Africa community and the Caribbean community, they had this fear of, we don't want to send our kids to go swimming because they could drown. The irony being that if you don't send your kids swimming, they will drown. Were you conscious of that? Did you see lots of black kids coming to learn swimming?

Michael

No. I realized that there were not many black children swimming. Yeah, they were in schools, but they weren't in the swimming clubs. And the thing is what you have to realize, black people have not had a really great relationship with water. So historically, you're going to say, Boy, that is a big thing in our family. Don't tell us too much about swimming. We're not in it. And then also, you always hear to talk about black people can't swim. I wrote a swimming Calypso, uh, Soka song years ago called A Water Dance. I've actually got Arrow, you know, Arrow feeling hot, hot. He sang it for me. Oh, really? Yeah. Wow. It goes. The first verse is like, this is your first day in a pool, so it's best to take things cool. Your heart's in a nervous mess? As the water splashes your chest? You want to turn and run away? But your legs just buckle away? You're in a slippery place. You go crashing on your face. And the chorus is, shake your hips and jump and prongs, jump and do the water dance. Jump and skip across the pool. Jump and skip all the way to school. Anyway, you get a chance. Jump and do the water dance. Uh, and that was the basis for my book. So I know that we've been stigmatized as black people. We haven't got enough black swimming coaches and teachers.

Uyi

True.

Michael

Uh, we need more. And when you're a teacher, you teach anybody. So not you're just going to teach black, but you're there for the black to look up to. Poor black man could say, yeah, man, I dive in and do two strokes. Let me do some beautiful front crawl for you, you know what I mean? So you got the example there. Got a complete different approach. I don't even sing the little songs that everyone sing. How ringing ring of roses and all. Uh, this I'll give an example of, say they want to go underwater. Give them a rhyme. When you go underwater, you must always think, is this something that I should drink if I don't want, uh, to coffee get into trouble. I puff out my cheeks and blow some nice bubbles. It was a psychological program because in my mind, the most important factor is the psychological thing that's proven by Paralympics. When you see someone just got two limbs and they could swim faster than someone with four, then, you know, there's got to be a psychological aspect to it. Not just physical, no. So that's, uh, what I chose to focus on, really. I'd like a legacy to be left in swimming, to be honest with you. Fig roster mouse has taken its place. That's in the British Library. They're safe and it's covered. But the swimming side now, I'd like that. And that's why I'd like to get the recognition, because I've taught thousands. So I've done that for ten years. Most important thing to me in my life was going, uh, Sri Lanka, 100 children don't speak a word of English, but it was successful.

Uyi

My kids, I take them, uh, swimming, right? Like they do swimming lessons and stuff. Because I just know when I was a kid, I didn't have that. You have to do swimming lessons in school. It's like once a week for ten weeks or whatever. Every year you do swimming lessons. But my parents would never take me to the swimming pool, you know what I'm saying? No, my parents actually didn't take me to the beach, but I would go to school trips or want to go to Margate or whatever. They'd be the, uh, one saying, don't go into the water, you will drown. That kind of thing. That makes you very self conscious of it.

Michael

Right?

Uyi

So you'd have this thing of you equate swimming all the water with being bad. The obvious outcome of that is, well, actually, you're conditioning your child to drown because they can't swim and they have a fear of the water as well. That's a bad combination.

Michael

Yeah, that's what they do. Even though we're a different generation, our family, we know if you ain't got no livelihood in the sea, what are you doing in the sea? If you're not a fisherman and you don't run a boat, what are you doing by the sea? You might sit on the side and put your foot in there, because the first time I went to any seaside with my mom, the first time was when I took her to Tobago in 19, um, 86. She hadn't been.

Uyi

And you had to take her to the beach?

Michael

I took her to the beach, and it's quite amazing because the taxi driver dropped us off and said, he's going to come and collect us. This is about nine in the morning, and she's coming at five. And my mom said, no, you come back before you feel going to stay here all day. When the fellow turned up, she said, can we come so soon?

Uyi

Yeah.

Michael

It was a beautiful day.

Uyi

She loved it.

Michael

She loved it. It was the first time anyone in her family had been tobacco, even I Trinidad and tobacco as well in Republic. Yeah, but you've been talking about the swimming thing. My idea is to get a group of Asian older and get them from non swimming to competitive level.

Uyi

I'm not a fan of stereotypes, and the sports stereotype is the most annoying one because it's black people. They're not good at swimming, are they? But the body type. What are you talking about? Black people are all different body types.

Michael

Are you serious? Uh, heavy bones.

Uyi

Um.

Michael

And big bone and all that. Yeah, well, that's really ridiculous, because I don't know any skeleton that floats.

Uyi

At the end of the day, we're humans got two arms, got two legs. Humans are human. So don't tell me there's a special kind of human. There's no special kind of human. Are there genetic attributes that benefit people? Yes, but it's not based on an ethnic group. Chris Rock had this joke where he goes, you know, the world's crazy when the world's tallest basketball player is Chinese. 40 years ago, you say there's going to be a Chinese basketball players going to play for the NBA now, what are you talking about? Uh, it's not going to happen, of course, if there's the opportunity, because there are tall people in China. If there's someone who just happens to be genetically gifted for basketball and you teach them how to play basketball, chances are they going to be successful. So now what they do in schools is they go and they Hunt people on the basis of their genetic make up. They look at you and they'll say, oh, you've got long limbs. Maybe we'll put you in a rowing club. You know what I'm saying? Either you're a bit stocky. Maybe we'll try you out for rug because they've realized now it's got nothing to do with this person's.

Uyi

Black.

Uyi

They must be good at running. That's bullshit. And it's something that I still hear from people, and I get annoyed, like, yeah, but why is it, uh, why is it that black people are so good at 100 meters sprint? One, not all black people are good at 100 meters sprint. No, it's a very small community in the Caribbean who are good at it. Right? Like, say, okay, Jamaicans, they do well compared to all the other Caribbean countries. You might have Bahamas do well. You might have America do well. Yeah, but there's so many countries in Caribbean and Africa who do not do well at 100 meters sprint. Two is the economic thing. Rhining is cheap.

Michael

All right.

Uyi

You don't get them doing yachting, do you?

Michael

No way.

Uyi

An archery. They can't afford it.

Michael

No, it's got nothing to do with the fact that.

Uyi

Oh, this person's good at this, because they are that ethnic.

Michael

I've had to do a lot of running historically.

Uyi

Again, but genuinely, I'm like if in the Caribbean, in Africa, they decided to invest a lot of money in black children swimming. In 30 years time you'd see them winning medals.

Michael

And this is what is needed. You need to have some money. You need some programs to be developed to encourage black children to swim. We're talking about children. They're not adults. It's children. And then it becomes part of their life. They need their role models. Absolutely. I've taught in Italy, Sri Lanka, definitely Barbados and Grenada. But, like, when I toured with Rustamus in 2013, it was Mr. Bloom and Friends. But the only friend he had was Rustin. Okay, so just, uh, me and him touring. Yeah, well, we go to various hotels. All the crew, the people that was doing the Marquis, I think there's one day I talked about six of them to swim. Listen, swimming or being in the water, I don't need the closest thing to flying. What you've got to do is decide the most efficient, uh, way to prepare yourself through the water. The water doesn't put resistance up. You do. But how you present yourself to the water.

Uyi

So, uh, you go around doing a lot of school work, right?

Michael

Yes, I do. I do a lot of workshops, reading and writing workshops. If I do Rusty Mouse, for instance, I do narration and have children or adults, whoever helping with the dialogue. And I do that a lot, which is fabulous. The response is brilliant because it's basically the Britney's rhymes that's designed to be recited, allowed at the moment. We're in the process of writing a film. Okay, get a Rust of Mouse movie. So there's been conversations. We've got a director on board. We're just looking down some music avenues. There's a fundamental story about Easy crew coming to Earth, because Earth is such a mess. So that's The Next Thing For The Next, Say, 1518 Months, As Regardless Of US. That's Where That's Going.

Uyi

Cool. Listen, Michael, we Have Talked A Long Time. It's Been Good. It's Been Really Fun. Like, It's, Like, Breeze Past. We've Had A Really Good Conversation, Actually. So I Really Appreciate It. The Influence, the Impact That Rastermas Has Had, Not On Me, But Also My Kids As Well. It's Been Huge. And I've Always Loved Kids Stories And Children's Stories, and They're One Of The Things You Remember For Your Life. So it's A Wonderful Thing To Meet Someone Who Creates These Stories That Are Going To Have A Huge Influence On Children As They Grown Up.

Michael

Well, I'll Tell You One Thing. I really appreciate you Inviting Me And Give Me The Opportunity To Talk In This Way, As Opposed To, uh, an Interview And All that. I Feel A Lot Better Like this. Yeah, it's Just Very Natural. I Appreciate It. I Just Think It's Great That Your Children And Yourself And So Many People Have Embraced It. It's wonderful.

Uyi

Yeah, it Has Been Wonderful. So If People Want To Contact You, What's The Best Way They Can Contact You If People Want To Reach Out?

Michael

Well, I've Got Instagram. One Word. Lilbrub IRI L-I-L-B-R-U-V-I re. They Can Reach Me On That Instagram, Or They Can Get A Message At Michael@rustermouse.com All. They Could Come To Portabillar Road.

Uyi

Yeah, you're Right In The Portal Market. So If You're Lucky Enough, You'll See Michael There. Uh, all Right. The Creative Rasta Mouse. Okay, Michael, it's Been A Pleasure. Thank you.

Michael

Nice.

Uyi

Okay, Guys, as Always, There's Some More Details About My Guests In The Show Notes. I'm Just Going To End This Episode With A Little Excerpt From An Experiment Carried Out In The Early 1980s and 19, Which Shows The Importance Of Why Good Role Models Are Needed For Young Children. Share subscribe And Like The Episode And I Will See You In Two Weeks Time.

Speaker C

Which Doll?

Speaker H

Um, is the Black Doll?

Speaker G

And Which One Is the White Doll?

Speaker H

Which Doll is the Pretty doll? Which Doll is the Nice doll? Which Doll is the Bad Doll? Why is that doll pretty.

Speaker I

And You Have Two eyes.

Speaker H

Which Doll is the Ugly Doll? Why is that doll ugly all Looks Most Like you.

Speaker C

Uh, yeah.

Speaker G

Which One Looks like.