Behind The Curtain

https://admin.headliner.ai/behind-the-curtain-mp3

Uyi

Hey, guys, welcome back to another episode of The Point of View. I am your host, Uyi Agbontaen. On today's episode, I sit, ... down with Chris Scarratt. Chris is a filmmaker, uh, who worked on some of the top London West Den theater theater productions. We talk about theater, uh, films. He also gives us insight into some of the business tools he's been able to utilize. Be a successful creative. We had a great chat. I'm sure you're going to enjoy this episode.

Chris

Mary had a little lamb.

Speaker G

Its fleet was white.

Chris

It's snow everywhere. That Mary went short to go.

Uyi

I was speaking to one of the parents, actually, at school. My kids are young. My kids are seven and four. And we, uh, were just talking about food, especially about meat. And she said it's really important for her to make sure that her children understand what they're eating.

Chris

Yes.

Uyi

It's not beef, it's a cow. Do you know what I mean?

Chris

It's not pork, it's a pig.

Uyi

I said, yeah, absolutely. And I said, I make my children very aware that this is an animal. And I said, especially with lamb. Lam. That's a baby sheep.

Chris

A cute baby sheep.

Uyi

Because I don't want them to be horrified at 1011.

Chris

Yeah. What exactly are we eating here? Well, Darling, uh, you know that beautiful, fluffy creature, uh, springing around the fields looking lovely. It's one of those skinned butchered and cooked perfection cooked.

Uyi

And it's delicious.

Chris

The expression I always come back to is meat is murder. Uh, tasty tasty murder.

Uyi

Uh, it is.

Chris

Are you a vegetarian or a vegan?

Uyi

No. My parents are in Nigerian, growing up in an African household. We don't even have vegetarian dishes. Every dish comes with meat. So I was always brought up loving meat.

Chris

Well, it's kind of very similar. For me. It was like meat and two veg. My mum and dad divorced when I was eight, so my mum brought me up majority of the time, and I think she just had a very high standard that she wanted to maintain. And so the table was always meat and too veg. And she'd Cook cottage pie, and there'd be peas or there'd be roast chicken and roast potatoes. I do think a lot about cutting down on meat and going vegetarian, and we do. We try and not eat meat all the time, but it's so damn good. It's so damn good. So I grew up in Devon. I grew up in Devon right next to a field which had dairy cows. For dairy cows, to produce meat, they have to be constantly pregnant. And so the cows would be in this cycle. But it was interesting because I would see calves being born as a kid, and it would be thrilling and unusual and exciting. And a friend of mine, same age as me at the time, so kind of like 8910, he would go and work at the farm. Uh, I don't think he got paid, but he just loved it. So he got. Then he'd help calves and just the whole process of farming just became very normalized. And it's like you see the cows in the field, you see the crops in the fields. You would see the cattle and the sheep in the market. There was still, at that, uh, time, a market town, uh, where I grew up. And I remember one of the first times where I was aware of maybe not the brutality of farming, but the visceral nature of it was when I went to the market to see just to go and look at the animals as you do. I'm noticing that the sheep had had their ears clipped with these kind of. And I think it was like a punch, a hole punch, uh, and I was just looking at it and you could see the blood and the animals were a little bit distressed and it was quite an affecting moment. And it's like, okay, all of the things that I witnessed never really made me think I should stop eating meat, which is how powerful either the compulsion to eat meat is or the naturalization of being carnivores or being omniscientivores.

Uyi

We don't understand how much drive, how much control that has over us. We like to think we're very rational, but we do a lot of irrational things, like superstition, for example. And it's not unique to humans because animals are superstitious. Animals will repeat behavior because they think there's a pattern there. And there isn't actually a pattern, which is what superstition is. He was in an experiment of the pigeon in the 50s. There's an experiment where they put this pigeon in its glass container and there is a button and a light and a food dish. When the pigeon sees the light taps the bottom of its beak and a little bit of food drops into the food dish. So the pigeon goes, oh, I get it now. If, uh, I tap when the light comes on, I get food pattern recognition. So they do that for, uh, two days. The pigeon starts doing it, gets rewarded, and then they mess up the system. So now the pigeon taps, nothing happens. But she goes, Hold on for a second.

Chris

What is going on?

Uyi

What is going on?

Chris

Yeah, I tapped, uh.

Uyi

So the pigeon taps three times and the food comes out. I get it now. Three taps, yes. And then they mess up the system again. And then three taps. Nothing sophisticated. What's going on? Free taps again. Four taps. No, let me turn around and tap. Turn around. Tap food. I've got three times to turn around. And at Superstition, you start this ritual building of interesting. Of a perceived pattern in life.

Chris

Yeah. The book I'm reading at the moment are the, uh, one thing it's really good. And that talks about how we are, um, being deprived of focus constantly. And the idea that multitasking is a really important skill. The examples they use in the book is that you see a job offer on LinkedIn, and it goes, These are the things you need.

Speaker UNK

Brilliant.

Chris

Communicator, hardworking multitasking. And it's like, okay, well, multitasking is a skill. All the studies show that if you multitask, you degrade each task you take on. So if you can focus an hour of your time on a single task, you will get far more accomplished than multitasking, say, for 3 hours on three different things. So every time you switch between something, your brain has to realign to the new task, get up to speed, and then start doing it. The problem we now have, as simple as choosing a chicken burger or a veggie burger, is that it's not just a case of what do I fancy? It's what I fancy. Who's going to see me do it? What do my influencers think? What's the current cultural situation? Am I going to offend someone by doing this? Am I going to offend someone by not doing this? And instead of just going.

Speaker G

Well, here's the situation.

Chris

Chicken burger, thank you very much. Getting on with it. You then multitask, you multitask that decision making process, and it's destructive. It's a destructive process because it destroys your ability to make decision and the amount of time you have to focus on what should be the importance?

Uyi

Option paralysis.

Chris

Uh, option paralysis. Now I get the feeling you're pretty good at making a decision. You'll go, right, this needs to happen.

Uyi

I'm going to do this within reason.

Chris

But within reason is still pretty good because we're only human. That's it. And everyone makes mistakes. Everyone errs. And no one can be perfect. I think, uh, that's widely accepted, except by some people. I'm trying to think of a good example of someone who thinks they're probably perfect. Karma Gregor.

Uyi

I think, you know what I would say. People who are leaders, uh, in sport, Conor McGregor is an outlier. Outliers probably do think they're perfect, uh, because that's what they need to do to achieve their goals. That's true in business and sport, whatever they do. Right. You have to believe that you're the best.

Chris

Of course.

Uyi

Yeah, I would agree.

Chris

I get to the point where I will see myself having decision or option paralysis. And it's because there are so many things I think I should be focusing on. And the skill that I'm trying to Hone at the moment is focus. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's a skill. It should be something that we are able to do as a process.

Uyi

I think it is a skill focus. It's one of these words that we just banned about when you start the formal education process. I'm just saying it's because I know I have young kids, and when they start to go to school, you start saying you need to focus. And from that young age, you hear this word focus. What does it mean and focus is something that we kind of get. But focus can become a habit and habits become skills if you choose to refine it and work at it. Yeah, but if you don't, it may not become a habit. And if you don't even get to the habit stage, it definitely isn't. So what's the difference between a habit and a skill? A habit is something you do often, but a skill is something you become very good at. Yes, and some people are very good at focusing. And I'm in the habit stage of focusing, but I'm not at the skill stage because I like distraction. I think humans like distraction. And we live in an age now that there are many distractions. Whereas when I was a kid and I can understand children, it's harder for children, because when I was a kid, there was no tablet, there was no computer. Um, there'd be one computer in the house.

Chris

There are three TV channels.

Uyi

There are three TV channels. There was one TV, and it was in the living room.

Chris

That's right.

Uyi

So you had no control over television anyway. And what could you do with. There were books at home and there were toys and you drew. And now I say to my kids, okay, do something. I don't have anything to do. I want to watch Netflix.

Chris

Get out of here. Well, we do the same. We do the same. Our kids are 13 and 14. They're definitely at the point now where they have some independence. But trying to get them to focus is a challenge. We do that by offering them the very melitude of choice. So it appears we're giving them a choice, but actually we're choosing the choices for how is he doing this?

Speaker D

His software is faster, his hardware is strong. He's a better machine. But you said humans hesitate only when they're making decisions. He's not making decisions. Yes or no. In his everyday life, man who decisions battle adviser comes down and the software takes off. The machine does everything. Alex, he's a passenger just along for the ride.

Speaker G

But if the machine is in control.

Speaker D

Then how is Murphy accountable? Who's pulling the trigger? When the machine fights, the system releases signals into Alex's brain, making him think he's doing what our computers are actually doing. I mean, Alex believes right now he is in control, but he's not. It's the illusion of free will.

Chris

The illusion of choice. Exactly. So I'm Chomsky. One of his theories is that you maintain the status quo by offering choice to the masses, which makes no difference to the status quo. So you give people the appearance of choice, and then they debate that furiously while all the other stuff going on around them never changes. And that's quite sinister.

Uyi

I was about to say cynicism quite, uh, cynical.

Chris

It is a cynical. It is a cynical theory.

Uyi

I'm not disagreeing, but it's quite a cynical theory.

Chris

I don't necessarily agree with it completely. I believe there are parts of that, and there are certainly governments will use that to control stories and their narratives. But you were talking earlier about you want people to follow leadership because they want to, not because they have to. And this is a good example of that, where instead of telling someone what to do, you show them a way of doing it and then allow them to make that decision for themselves. But if you've shown them a good way or a sensible way or a structured way, the decision they make will probably be right. From a business perspective, if you are coaching your team or your colleagues or your staff, it's for the benefit of the business. And that is something that everyone will benefit from. So if you are working with a business or for a business and your team isn't performing for whatever reason, you don't want to go right, you're not performing. I'm going to get someone else. The ideal thing is you brought someone on board to a business because you've seen something good in them. And it may be that you haven't seen all of them yet, but you'd know that out of the five skills that I want, you have three, which are great. I've seen you demonstrate them because you've worked as a freelancer. I know that you're a good communicator, and I know that you understand your craft, but then maybe you find out later that they, uh, don't deal with pressure well, or admitting a mistake or taking responsibility. So in that instance, you go, right, I've got someone here who I really think is good at three things. I need to just tweak the other two and you work with them on that. And in a work environment, coaching and developing your team is cool. You can't just go now, off you go. You do it to develop them, not just them, but there is a benefit for you as well. Selfish benefit. If you are the business owner that it makes your business better and improves things all around, but then that feeds back to them as well. So hopefully they improve as a professional and they're feeding into the business in a more efficient way. In business, you can't have divide. You can't have a divided team. If you're working together as a team, it's winners a team or lose as a team. And then you can start to focus. Coming back to the word focus, you can focus down onto the things that really matter to move your business forward. During lockdown, I joined a video business development group. So it's like a coaching group. It was like an online meeting Zoom call. And I said, oh, I just hate sales. Hate sales. And the guy who runs the course, a guy called Dan Lenny, he's a really good guy when it comes to this sort of thing goes, right, everyone stop, right. Chris, I want you to just think about what you said. I said, Well, I hate sales. He goes, Sales the blood of your business. If you are not selling, your business will die. And in turn, you will have no business and you will need to get a job and work for someone else, and that will have a detriment on your family. So when you have the mindset of you hate sales, what, uh, you're actually saying is, I want my business to fail. And he put it in a very matter of fact way that I could connect to immediately. And it's like, oh, okay. He said, and I tell you, this is why you've said what you said. You see sales as the big suit, kipper tie, slick back hair car salesman who is just trying to get your money. That is not sales are developing a relationship between you and your client, which is mutually beneficial, but more so for them, that is a sale. Don't think about it in terms of a number or as a person. It is a relationship. Think about developing a relationship. And what can you do for your clients that will make their life easier, make their business better, and, uh, develop your relationship? Because that is selling. That is selling. And all of a sudden you go from one mindset to another. And it's like, do you know what sells are easy because it's not about getting money from people. It's about developing relationships.

Uyi

Did you find that what he said to you, your underlying reasons for hating sales? Did you find that was accurate?

Chris

Yes. There was definitely part of me that was resistant to the idea of a sale because it was a financial transaction. It wasn't an emotional transaction or it wasn't a relationship transaction. It was very much bottom line. And before I started my current business, I'd been working as a communications agency. And it very much felt there that the bottom line, uh, was what counted. And I think what someone needed to tell me was it's the relationship that counts in retrospect to where I am now? It's like, oh, yeah, it, uh, makes complete sense over lockdown. A lot of the work I do is in theater. All the theaters were shut. The industry was in panic mode. A lot of the agencies I do work for shedding staff. I know two of the big agents I work for made at least half their staff redundant. And it's like, where is the next job going to come from? So taking on board that philosophy of relationships, I just kept in touch with everyone. And these were people I liked. It wasn't like I had to phone someone up I thought was an ass. And here's a good thing about the arts world. Everyone's really nice. Everyone's really nice. They genuinely love what they do. They work in the industry because it's a passion as much as a job. You meet people in person and they are thrilled because, uh, they're going to see a show tonight or they're working on a show that they've loved since they were a kid and it's a beautiful place to be. And so you start developing relationships with these people. They're not corporate, they're art, they work, uh, in the art sector. They have a passion for what they do beyond it being a good job and you start going actually, it's nice. I'm talking to people who don't mind getting an email from me, but it was great, that bit of coaching. And I know we've kind of come around in a bit of a circle here. We've gone from your focus and coaching, but that one piece of coaching changed my perspective on the business and started to use the expression move the needle from an empty tank to a full tank and you just need to kind of nudge it. And another thing that I found really useful about the coaching was not having to do it all at one time. You are an individual, one person trying to run a business at the most difficult point in trading that you've ever experienced. You're not going to get everything done overnight. So I think we talked about the 20 miles March. Yes, the race to the pole between these two teams. And one team would, um, be health. Leather every day. The other team, 20 miles, just 20 miles every day. Sun shine, whatever it was, we're going to do 20 miles, we're going to stop, we're going to rest, we're going to heal up and then do 20 the next day. So team a health of leather every day. Burnt out, never got there. Team 220 miles break, 20 miles break gets there, they get the job done. And I, um, think there is a real expectation through social media, through peer pressure, through a continued search for improved productivity, which can only go so far. You can only be so productive before it's impossible to be more productive, to get so many things done. So you do, uh, a small amount every day and you chip away and there are lots of expressions. It's a marathon, a sprint, all that kind of thing. But we don't really take them to heart and we don't apply them to our business or even our lives. We're just going to go he said as a mantra, but we don't live by that mantra and we need to adopt those things to become successful. Like, I loved your idea of it being a habit, not a skill. Just take one step towards something become inhabit. You do it once and then the next morning you do it again and then you do it again and it slowly becomes a habit. Then you refine that and you analyze it and then it's a skill. And once it's a skill, that's something you can't put down. And if we can do that in just one or two places in our life, it's a huge change.

Uyi

I'm completely identify and understand what you're saying, and I think there are many correlations with habit forming and skill forming and setting realistic goals that can be transferable to many aspects of your life, whether it's professionally or whether it's personally. It's our attitude towards improving ourselves that often becomes a problem rather than the actual activity itself. In a New Year's resolution, people set a goal for themselves, which is normally not unrealistic, but the way they try to reach the goal is unrealistic. I'm going to lose weight and say they go on this extreme diet too fast in too little time, and then they crash, they binge. Because why have you gone from one extreme to the other extreme rather than, Well, let's just take a gradual approach to it. I want to get fit. So they train every day in the gym for two weeks, and then maybe a month down the line, they're like, I can't be bothered to do this anymore.

Chris

I'm injured.

Uyi

I remember people would, uh, talk about things like, I want to read more and I'm going to read a book a week. Well, that's a really admirable goal, but that's intense. A book a week. Why don't you read a chapter a day?

Chris

Absolutely. And it's breaking it down, isn't it? Into those bite sized pieces. The book I've got on the chair over there, it was like, I'm going to read that book this week. And it was exactly that. It's like, you're an idiot. Between work, kids training, the demands of this podcast, you're, uh, doing so demanding, so demanding. I don't know how I managed to squeeze it. Just read a bit. And it was that mindset change. The gym membership thing, I think, is a great example where everyone is selling their gym memberships. There's some crazy statistic, like, uh, 80% of gym memberships are never used in January. And it's like, wow, that's madness.

Uyi

It's easy to look at someone who's really good at something and be like, wow, you're so good. And I'm not like that. And then when you speak to that person, they might say to you, but do you know how many hours I spent to get to this level? I took hours. And it's cumulative. So you don't see the progress until way down the road. And you're like, oh, actually, this isn't hard anymore.

Chris

Totally. Like success. You see it all the time on LinkedIn. The chart saying, people think success goes from A to B and A is down here and B is up there. And it's a straight line. And actually, it's that success is a squiggly line that goes backwards and forwards and up and down. And it's full of jubilation and terror and exultation and fear and horror and excitement. And you have to kind of embrace all of those elements, like the Amazon culture of fail fast. It's good in some respects, but you have to embrace failure. Embrace failure as part of life.

Uyi

You mentioned a lot of interesting points. You're still doing the coaching?

Chris

Yes. It's been quite transformative in the way I look at the business and how I look at myself taking myself from like a freelance filmmaker to a business person who operates a film company.

Uyi

I know that, uh, you've worked in a lot of interesting areas, worked at cultural heritage sites, you've worked in theater. You even went to, uh, Switzerland.

Chris

You're telling me you kind of go through life, you do different things. I was part of three guys, and we formed a digital magazine called The Arbitrarian. And we started off reviewing sandwich bars and little burger joints. And then within about twelve months, we were getting invited to review, like, Michelin star restaurants and swanky hotels. And then the travel kicked in. So the tourist boards for all these different countries to really swanky press trips. And one of them was to the Swiss Alps specifically to go up to the Vice Horn Hotel. And I got invited on it. I said, well, I'm going to take a camera and make a film. It was great, but we got to talk town. And it was picturesque. Classic Swiss sleep, roofs, snow, beautiful. Everything's pretty. So we end up going to the Vice Horn Hotel, and it's like a James Bond villains destination. It's all wooden floors and the rooms are all wooden paneled. But you have got the amazing views across the Swiss Alps, and it's just the sunset was stunning. The people who've written for us, they've gone on to write for The Spectator and The Guardian. It's been really good to see those people going to do those things. But it was like, okay, now I have a blank cannabis, and I love making films, and I'd always been in production. And it's like, now I can go and do that for myself. And I brought a few people together and we started the company and it was a disaster. Never start a business with your friends. Never, never do it. Never do it. You'll either kill each other or it's either death or destruction. Choose one. And I'm still friends with two of the three of them.

Speaker UNK

Um.

Chris

That'S fine. And that's good. And we all moved on. And it was just me starting to think, what can I focus on to make the business work? What we do is we make films for art, theater and culture and heritage. A good example would be new show starts in the West End and we'd make a trailer for it or an EPK, an electronic press kit. And it's great, but we also got to do that sort of thing for historic Royal palaces. So that's Tower of London, Kensington Palace, Q Palace. And you get there and you've got this whole place to yourself. It was like a kids adventure. You're going into a Castle, a real bona fide Castle where Kings have lived and Queens have been executed. There's history plenty. And also contemporary history going on like the last people ever to be imprisoned in the Tower of London. Cray twins.

Uyi

Oh, wow. I did not know that.

Chris

There we go. They put them there because it was like a statement.

Uyi

They were so bad that they had to go to the Tower.

Chris

That was it. That was the intention behind that move. Same with Natural History Museum and the Science Museum. And you go into these places late at night or early in the morning and you feel like a kid. If you've just woken up on their birthday and they've gone, guess what? You're going to the Natural History Museum, but you've got the whole place for yourself. Off you go. And you suddenly realize you've landed on your feet. Sometimes it's through hard work and sometimes it's a bit of luck and sometimes it's a combination of those things.

Uyi

At what point did you think, not only can I do this, but actually, no, this is working.

Chris

I would say three years ago. The first six months of any business is exciting. It's a roller coaster where it's like, Come on, we can do this. And everyone has their ambition and their ideas and their energy and it's like, this is going to work. And then the realization kicks in that being ambitious and having ideas and having energy doesn't necessarily convert into work into a profitable business. And then you have your disagreements and then you have your internal power struggles and you have the things that aren't going to work. So three years of that, everyone went their separate ways. And then it was just me and I think it was January or February, March 2020. And I shot a promo for a show called Message In A Bottle contemporary dance show with the music of Sting. And we went over to their rehearsal studio and they finished it the night before. So this was like the first run through they'd ever done. No lights, no costumes, nothing. Everyone's watching this and it's like lots of big weeks. There are lots of people in the theater industry who are serious players. And I'm sat front row right in the middle, in between all these people watching the show get to the end. This is someone I'm cynical about contemporary dance. Crying, crying like a baby. This was the most amazing thing I'd ever seen. Without costume, without lighting, without staging. And they had managed to move me to tears, which I was very surprised about, but jubilant about it as well. And we filmed this thing and it got it into the shoot and it was like chest bumps and high fives and hugs. We delivered the trailer and everyone loved it. It went down a treat. And then a month later, we've got the Prime Minister saying, uh, you've got to stay at home. And it's like, you're fucking kidding me? And it was a real kick in the nuts. And you expect adversity. When you're running a business, that's inevitable, you expect setbacks, but to kind of get to the point where it's like, okay, the business is in a strong position, and it was just about to kick into one of those years of, like, making some money. I think the important thing is that you can't stop in the face of adversity. I'm not just talking about being positive. You have to be honest with yourself about what you're going to do. And there was definitely a point where I thought the company would have to close. As you're fully aware, theater shut, and then there was a lot of uncertainty about whether they could or couldn't open. Consumer confidence was bouncing all over the place. Producers were in a very tricky position because they couldn't get insurance. And then it kind of came back, and we had a reprieve, and some shows came back, and in fact, I got a call from a client, said, look, I'm working with Rob Bryan. He's got a show coming up. Can you come and film, uh, some stuff with it? It's like, absolutely. And we went in there, we had his Orchestra, and we had Rob, and we had a crew, and it worked out well, and it looked good. And then content started showing up like BBC angle, like one showing Graham Norton. And it was like, this is my work on the TV, and it really made you feel good, especially after a year of uncertainty. Lockdown. And then the end of October, November, everyone came back, and it felt like the West End. The lights came back on. People started coming out again. Big shows opened. It returned some confidence to the industry. This is a theater industry where musicals are massive. A West End musical is just the biggest thing we filmed. Michael Ball did some stuff with him. Legend.

Uyi

Uh, that guy's a legend.

Chris

The man's a legend. He's a lovely guy, and he's a legend. Matilda is great. You look at the style of production, you look at the quality. You look at the creative teams behind it. You're on stage where this magic happens. That's a thrill. That's a real thrill. And the last thing I got to direct was for Cinderella, Andrew Lloyd Weber Cinderella. And it was a big production day, and they had lots of different shoots going on. I mean, let's face it. When it comes to theater, Android Weber, you don't get bigger than he's the man. He's the man. And the show was amazing. What you forget is theater in the West End. You get the best of the best. You don't just get okay. You don't just get good. You get phenomenal. And so when these performers and these actors and these entertainers come on set, they are at the peak of their game, and, uh, you can, uh, feel it. It emanates off them like an energy. They walk in the room, and they own it. It's great. And just one final one, which I got to throw in there was filming Ray finds for his TS Elliott adaptation of Four Quartets, which are four poems monologues. And he was astounding, uh, I'd imagine he would be. It's that hold that star power.

Uyi

He's powerful.

Chris

He is a very, very powerful individual on camera and off camera. But also, this surprised me. He knows his technical stuff when it comes to lighting and camera work, because he's worked in Hollywood. He's worked with some brilliant directors of photography, some astounding directors, brilliant technicians, brilliant creatives. And so when I was writing this rehearsal studio for, uh, this bit we were doing with him, and suddenly this guy stood next to me with a mask. We're all masked up, and I just kind of see there's someone there, uh, and I look around and I go suddenly realize Ray Fine stood next to me. And it's like, oh, my God. I'm going, oh, you do? And he goes, yeah, I just want to talk about the lighting. It's like, all right. And he's giving me direction on the lighting. This is good. This is good. But I was, um, probably 6ft away from him when he started the monologue. He gets into character, but then snap, he's off. He's turned it on, and it is pokey. It's powerful, it's potent. And you get to see these performers in a way that a lot of people don't.

Uyi

You know, even right there, right there in front of them.

Chris

One, uh, on one performance.

Uyi

Wow.

Chris

It's an honor. It's a privilege to see these guys perform in that way. And long may it continue. We haven't talk at all about film. Not yet. What do you think I watch every Christmas?

Uyi

Die Hard.

Chris

Die Hard. It's got to be done.

Uyi

I did it. Well, it's going to come out soon. It's going to come out this week at your podcast. But we had a debate about Christmas movies. A little debate. The person who I spoke to, he put up his top three films, which were Home Alone, The Muppet, Christmas Carol, and something else. And I was like, what are you talking about? I was like, Where is Die Hard? And I was like, for me, I love Diehard as a Christmas movie. How do you like Home Alone? There's nothing wrong with Home Alone. There's nothing wrong with my puts Christmas cows. These are great films, but I love Diehard. I actually love Batman Returns, which is another Christmas movie.

Chris

Oh, that's interesting.

Uyi

Yes. Which people never think of, but it's set in Christmas.

Chris

Okay, I need to review this.

Uyi

And because my other half bought me a Gremlins Christmas T shirt.

Chris

Yes.

Uyi

And my kids were like, What's Gremlins? What's Gremlins? And I said, Are they old enough to watch it? Are they old enough? And I was like, I'm in an eye. And my wife was like, no, don't let them watch it. What's wrong with you? And I was like, but I was about seven when I watched it. And then I started it, and then I thought, no, you're not old enough to watch it.

Chris

Gremlins. It's one of those films that you forget how violent it is. There's a scene where I think I can't remember someone walks past with a Gremlin, like, basically slashing them and they're covered in cut.

Uyi

Very violent.

Chris

Doesn't one of them explode in a microwave?

Uyi

Apparently, the marketing for Gremlins, which is hilarious, because obviously this was like 1984 85, and you had two options. You go to the cinema or you go to the video shop. So the marketing is in the cinema. Christmas movie. Take the family. And so that's what people did. And apparently in the trailers, they didn't show anything about the actual Gremlin.

Speaker E

Steven Spielberg presents.

Speaker D

Gremlins.

Speaker E

Billy Pulsar has a nice home.

Speaker G

Billy, is that you? You know that it's me.

Speaker E

A nice job, a nice girl.

Speaker D

If you're not doing anything this Thursday night, maybe you'd like to go out on a date with me.

Speaker G

I'd love to.

Speaker D

And loving your parents who are about to give him.

Speaker G

No, don't shake it. We're going to have to open it out. We'll wait till Christmas.

Speaker D

The most unusual gift. Come on, Bonnie. Be a good dog. My dad gave it to me, but there are a few things to keep in mind. If you expose it to the lights.

Speaker E

You may hurt it.

Speaker D

If you get it wet.

Speaker E

It will multiply all that from water.

Speaker D

Plain water.

Speaker E

Most important, no matter how much they Bake, never let them eat after midnight.

Speaker D

Because when they do.

Uyi

People went in and they were like, what is this?

Chris

Hold on a minute. I didn't sign up for this slaughter Fest. The spirit of Christmas has been destroyed for my entire family.

Uyi

And it was a PG. I think now it's like a 15. It was a PG when it came out.

Chris

So you mentioned an interesting date just now. 1984. So 1984 was the year when the BBFC British Board of Film Classification introduced the Video Censorship Act. So before 1984, anyone, any age could go up to. In my case, it was Dave King's video store and take any video you wanted. Now, I think they probably exercised a bit of control over sexier movies, but, uh, I remember we'd go in and we'd hire every terrible, inappropriate movie we could find. And so in 84, I was eleven ish about eleven. And here is a short list of some of the films you should never watch as a child. Nightmares in the Damaged Brain, Evil Dead, Cannibal Fair Rocks, Texas Chainsaw Massacre. That was a particularly bad nightmare for that one for a few days. But the interesting thing was, I didn't turn into a serial killer. Or certainly, I'm not admitting to it during this podcast.

Uyi

Dance dance.

Chris

Tune in next week for when Chris was arrested. Uh, but I watched all these really intense, inappropriate movies as a kid.

Uyi

Yeah. Later on, they became known as the videonarstes video.

Chris

Nasties, Cannibal, Fair, rocks, driller Killer. These things have. They are legend within the film world. And certainly during that time of home entertainment becoming a big thing, and they definitely gave me nightmares. But other things that I watched that were terrifying. Alien. That is a scary, scary film. Psychologically scary.

Uyi

Yeah, it's a different type of scary movie. Aliens is more traditional horror scare.

Chris

Yeah, that's it. And also action.

Uyi

Yeah, it was great.

Chris

Full on action movie with lots of interpretations of that all the way through, from parenting to the Vietnam War. Um, so you can draw things from that. But I look back on those days, partly aghast at what we were doing, but also actually, those years were part of my formative youth. And you talked about a book can change you, an album can change you. And those films change me. And from that point on, it's like, I want to make film. I want to make film. And you grew up in a small marketing town in Devon, and there isn't a lot of opportunity to do that. But I had it set in my head. And in fact, looking back, I've come to the realization now that I started the 20 Miles March to become a filmmaker when I was eleven. And slowly, slowly, slowly, every step I took took me towards that moment of watching Tobe Hooper's, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, to making a film called The Last Intimate Thing with David Charles, who you probably know from one of the dads in between us. The really inappropriate one. Yeah, Jay's dad. He's Jaz dad in between us. Um, and Casey Ainsworth, who played little Moni Stenders, and they were both great.

Uyi

Where's my dinner? More.

Chris

You're a fan, you're clear. Uh, and suddenly it's like, these people are looking to you to direct this film, but the realization of actually you're making a film now was a reliable that like.

Uyi

You grew up in the 80s and 90s. I was a bit younger, but that was my formative years as well. And I loved films. I loved the video shop. I love the cinema. And I think it was just the right time, that coming of age time where you could watch these films and no one would judge you for it completely. No one judged an eight year old for watching The Terminator.

Chris

No.

Uyi

Robocop.

Chris

Robocop was an 18, wasn't it?

Uyi

Yes, it was. I had RoboCop, but I remember this because I had it when I was, uh, like, nine. And I used to, like to go to the video shop. And the video shop owner, we had this relationship. So they knew my parents were like, I can rent whatever I want, as long as it's not, as you said, one of the sexy movies, that's the top shelf stuff. You can't rent that. But whatever. They were like, it's fine. He can rent it. So I watched the horrors. I watched a ton of action, ton of action film from 80s and 90s action to Hong Kong cinema. I watched it all. Watched Japanese animations, uh.

Chris

Everything Kung Fu, everything. Marshlox movies.

Uyi

Every single thing I watched. It's weird because now I'm very conscious of what my children watch. And I'm like, what do I feel like about it? Why do I feel very conscious of, oh, I can't watch this. When I was their age, I watched it. I watched this. I watched that, and it didn't harm me. Whereas, as you will remember, we went through that period of the Mary White House period. We went through the video Nasties period. We went through the Jamie Bulger period where films were blamed. Films and albums, especially hiphop albums, hip hop albums and heavy metal.

Chris

That's right.

Uyi

And films were blamed for any ill in society.

Chris

So society's ills were pushed onto culture.

Uyi

Yes.

Chris

It's like, okay, we've been teaching Shakespeare in schools where people are murdered, rape, murder, death.

Uyi

Let's blame the Bard.

Chris

Yes, the Bard is clearly to blame all of society's woes. But obviously that's high culture. So we can't blame that.

Uyi

Of course not.

Chris

So where else can we point the finger? And what is going to get us a podium to stand on and shout? And you may be saying, these things are bad, but you're missing the bigger picture. Society's ills are not driven by, uh, culture. They're driven by society and by, uh, people. You could take away all film, all entertainment tomorrow, and you will still have terrible things happen. There'll still be murder and death. And you will find probably having, uh, more. Yeah, almost certainly. And the trouble is, there are assholes in, uh, the world. It's unavoidable. And a lesson that I'm sure you've learned and I've learned over many years is that if you meet one asshole in a day, they're the asshole. If you meet two assholes in a day, then you're probably the asshole. And you just have to remember that you're going to have a bad day and be an asshole. But don't, uh, be the asshole all the time and try never to be that asshole. I'm not going to say asshole anymore because I've said it so many times.

Uyi

You said that. It just reminded me of that lion in Team America, World Police, where the main character, he's feeling really down. He's failed being part of this elite team that saves the world of America, USA. He goes into this bar and this drunk guy is like, the thing you need to remember, son, is there's three types of people in the world hit rock bottom.

Speaker F

Easy. You got to calm down there, Chuck. I hurt people. I'm a Dick. Oh, being a Dick ain't so bad. So there are three kinds of people. Dick, pussies and assholes. Pussy think everyone can get along and Dick just want to fuck all the time. Without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes checked and all the assholes wanted to shit all over everything. So pussies may get mad at Dicks once in a while because pussies get fucked by Dicks, but Dicks also fuck assholes, Chuck. And if they didn't fuck the assholes, you know what? You get your Dick and your pussy all covered.

Uyi

Pussy, Dicks and assholes. And then he starts to explain and it makes perfect sense.

Chris

Yeah, it is. And it's funny. So even within something which can be described as crass and bass, as Team America, there is philosophy, there is, and there is. Philosophy is profound. In movies, sometimes it's harder to find and you have to dig around for it, but it's brilliant. You can learn a lot from popular culture, rap albums. Absolutely. Heavy metal, definitely. And in fact, I was massively into my heavy metal as a kid and I found it empowering. I found it the Devil's music. Here's a funny fact, which band has Chris seen live the most? It's a toss up between Metallica and Slayer and Slayer. Quite a controversial band. Controversy follows them around like bees and honey. But when you're younger, you don't necessarily see that controversy. And even, uh, when I'm older, someone said to me, I said, oh, Slayer a plane. Do you want to come and see him? It's like, yeah, Jeff Hanneman might have allegedly a collection of Nazi paraphernalia. And I think I knew that at the time. But then someone's going, do you want to come and see one of the most visceral metal bands around? It's like, actually, I do. I'm going to put that little thought aside and hope that Jeff has. He's always said he's not an artsy, he collects it. I can't remember what his justification was, and it's a hard one to justify, to be.

Uyi

That's an interesting point that you've made, actually, because I was talking, I've talked about this with some people before, especially obviously, in the entertainment world, in the arts, you might admire someone's work, but do you have to agree with the person's beliefs and ideology? And if their ideology or beliefs offend you or are offensive, does that detract from their work?

Chris

And that's a big question. That appears a lot at the moment, especially at the moment. So you can roll that back to Michael Jackson. Yes, you can apply that to Gary Glitter.

Uyi

Gary Glitter, did you watch The Joker? You must have watched The Joker watch The Joker. And so there's a Gary Glitter song in the film. And, uh, when the soundtrack on the album, when it's on track, it's not there, but it was controversial, but they put it in there. And Gary Glitter, if people don't know who Gary Glitter is, you'd have definitely heard his music. If you're in the UK, you know who Gary Glitter is. If you're around the world, maybe not, but in America, every time, they would have a big sporting event like it was a Super Bowl. They'd play Gary Glitter. And there's something about the music that makes you feel like, yes is a song where my dream is going to go up. And I'm excited to see the game. But, you know, the person behind it did horrific things.

Chris

Yeah. So I've got a very good friend called Matt, and he is a huge fan of Sean Connery. And Sean Connery. He made a statement about it's okay to slap a woman.

Uyi

I mean, he did loads in James Bond and they didn't ban those, but.

Chris

Yeah, exactly. And I don't know if he actually did assault his partners or his wife. I don't know.

Uyi

I think maybe, but he said it was okay.

Chris

Uh, but it's. Taking that as an example. Does an opinion and an action than preclude you from watching a film? Say The Untouchables, a brilliant film made by many people and starring several other big names. Should you not watch that film because of the actions of one individual, like Roman Polanski? Yeah. Another very controversial figure. A very controversial figure. There are some things which are unforgivable. I think we can say that. But there are some things where you have to go. What's the word context of a film which is made by multiple people? If you're an individual, if you're one person and you do a terrible thing, you should be judged for that and you should pay the penance for that thing. Absolutely. Do you preclude that from the Canon of work because of the actions of one person? And I'm not just saying I know the answer, but it feels like there are some things which are, uh, so collectively produced by a bunch of creatives that to punish everyone for one person's action would feel unjust.

Uyi

That's a good point. I wasn't thinking of it like that, but that's a good point, because actually, we're not talking about a book. So if it's a film or it's a piece of music, it is collective for the most part. But then does the value of that work diminish because you know what the person did? That's my point. Uh, for example, Harvey Weinstein, we talked about the 90s, right?

Chris

Yeah.

Uyi

So many great films, 90s, early 2000s, that's it.

Chris

Including Lord of the Rings.

Uyi

Including Lord of the Rings, Miramax. Because we know that he did horrific things. Does it detract from the work that we see? Just the work itself? It's, uh, a very moral question, and it's a difficult one. No one has a problem with James Bond.

Chris

Yeah. Misogynist.

Uyi

He literally slapped people and sexually assaulted them. And it was fine. It was fine. In fact, he was a ladies man.

Chris

That's it described as a ladies man. Do you remember that? The expression used to go around it's like James Bond, men want to be him, women want to be with him. That for me, it shows how cultural acceptance changes and flows and moves through time. I'm certainly not justifying that action, but at the time that was the norm. But you would then have Mary White House saying, well, these video nasties where it's fantasy violence are causing problems in society, it's the wrong focus. It's the wrong focus.

Speaker UNK

Absolutely.

Uyi

And I 100% agree. Everyone says, I know someone who knows someone whose son watched Superman and he jumped off the garage and he broke his leg. But most kids didn't do that. No, most kids didn't think they could fly. They would run around the house with like a towel, but they didn't jump off a building because they saw Superman do it.

Chris

That's it.

Uyi

Films were very misogynistic. They still are quite misogynistic, actually. They're probably getting better. We grew up in the 80s. We grew up watching TV shows like The Ateam, where men would smoke cigars and fire guns.

Chris

Yeah. It is interesting that you look at the portrayal of men and women and kids throughout filmic history. The classic John Wayne. He was like, everyone looked up to him.

Uyi

Maybe it's an era thing. We're of the era where we remember the 80s and the 90s very clearly. And I feel like you can watch a John Wayne film and kind of feel uncomfortable with it today.

Chris

Yeah, I think that's fair.

Uyi

Maybe I'm being biased because I don't feel the same way about the 80s and the 90s. I feel uncomfortable watching Roger Moore and Sean Connery, but I don't feel uncomfortable watching Timothy Dalton or Pierce Brosnan.

Chris

Sure. And I think there was a switch, wasn't there? But also you had a different style of actor Timothy Dalton. He was a Shakespearean, uh, actor, I believe, when he came to the role of Bond and he took it very seriously. He wanted to not do the tongue in cheek thing so much, although the script sometimes you couldn't avoid it. But you watched the way he plays him and he plays him in a very, almost like a professional spy. He's not there for the drink. He's not there for the wisecrack. He's there to do a job. And in a way, there are some parallels between that performance and Daniel Craig's Bond. Agree.

Uyi

Which lucky Dalton was my favorite Bond.

Chris

That in itself is a controversial opinion. I like Dalton. I liked what he did, Funnily enough, for a long time. My favorite Bond was Roger Moore, because that's who I grew up with. And that's who I saw as Bond. And when you're a kid, Sunday afternoon or Christmas, Christmas is a classic. It's like Bond movies on.

Uyi

We're going to watch the Bond movie film called Octopusy.

Chris

Octopusy. I mean, does it get any better? And Grace Jones?

Uyi

Yes.

Chris

I mean, as a kid seeing a woman like Grace Jones on the screen, I was just like, God's name, who is this? And I think I got a bit of a crush on Grace Jones when I was a kid. Powerful, uh, female powerful female character. Yeah. And that rolled on.

Speaker UNK

Uh.

Chris

She portrayed a really strong female character, which was quite unusual. Usually Bond characters, especially female characters in a Bond movie, would be second fiddle to him. Yes, she was equal. Then she beat him up, she mounted him. She mounted him. And I remember that happening, thinking, how do I get to meet this lady? And I think what it was you're so used to seeing one particular thing and your hero is suddenly being rolled over and he is the one they've been taken advantage of. And you think, hello, this is literally this is a turnaround. This is a turnaround for the books. And you look at moments in cinema where some of that happens and it starts to make you question, maybe subconsciously, but you start to think, all right, well, why did I enjoy that moment so much? And it's because the transfer of power has taken place physically, but also subconsciously. Bond has been subdued by a woman and a black woman as well, which was like, wow, this is great. But I think it's by seeing strong female leads over the years.

Uyi

Grace Jones was a very strong female figure of the mid to late 80s. She has a very imposing presence about her.

Chris

Definitely.

Uyi

There weren't many females, uh, like that. We're pretty much talking about the action genre. And you have a film coming out now, like three, five, five. And it's just an all female cast in an action film.

Chris

Yeah.

Uyi

So it's very interesting how that change has happened, but I think it's those small things that we saw in the 80s, for example, which was sowing the seeds. You're like, oh, actually, even before that, because Alien is probably the.

Chris

Well, yeah, when it comes to strong female leads and strong female actors, I mean, there are very few that can compete with Sigourney Weaver.

Uyi

It wasn't that a decision by Ridley Scott, because I believe the character was written as male and he decided to make her female.

Chris

If that's the case, then what a brilliant swing that was.

Uyi

A brilliant swing.

Chris

That was really Scott's doing. He has effectively set up the strong female lead for generations.

Uyi

Um, of the archetype. I think Sequinuva is actually the strong female archetype, the originator, the original one, because I can't think of anyone else before her. And the second strong female character. And you know who I'm going to say now? Linda Hamilton.

Chris

Terminator.

Uyi

Terminator Two. Because Terminator One, she's not that character.

Chris

She's not no.

Uyi

Terminator Two. I mean, you believe, um, that Sarah Connor could kick us.

Chris

Absolutely. Without doubt. Here's an interesting thing. So Aliens, James Cameron, Terminator Two. James Cameron taking that idea of a strong female character and running with it and taking it to the next level.

Uyi

Going back to the point that we even started with about films, I generally do not think that films harm people. They can harm certain people. But I don't think oh, you've got to be careful because you can harm someone or you can influence them to the point that they are going to carry out extreme actions. I think most people can separate them.

Chris

I would argue that people have to be capable of doing those actions regardless of whether they've watched a film, read a book, listen to a song 100%.

Uyi

It definitely isn't a film that caused them. There is a line in Scream which I love.

Chris

The new screen.

Uyi

No, in the old screen. I'm going to watch, uh, the original screen like it's so long ago. But there's a line in it where the character says.

Speaker F

Don'T you blame the movies? Movies don't create psychos movies.

Uyi

Hilarious. We've covered so much stuff. It's been really good.

Chris

Thank you.

Uyi

Thank, uh, you for spending the time.

Chris

Pleasure.

Uyi

It's been a real pleasure to really enjoy talking to you. I know you're not much of a social media person, but if people were to try and see some of the stuff you've done or reach out to you, where would they find you?

Chris

So I've got a Vimeo channel for the company called the Cleveland Agency. I'm on Instagram as Chris Garrett and that's about it. I do go on Twitter, but may need to read about what faux PA the Prime Minister has made of, uh, late and I'm on Facebook, but just not much. Yes, so Instagram, um, and Vimeo are probably your best bet.

Uyi

Cool. All right. It's been really good, Chris. I appreciate it.

Chris

You thank you so much for having me on. I had no idea how much I'd enjoy this. It's been absolutely enjoyable. It's been fun. It's been insightful, and I think I've learned some things about myself as well. Cool.

Uyi

Thank you very much.

Uyi

Okay, guys, that was it. I hope you really enjoyed the show as always. There are details about my guest in the show notes. Thank, um, you for all your support. Don't forget to subscribe like and share this episode and I will see you in two weeks time.

Uyi

Bye