Transcript: Awakening: Darren Le Baron

00:00 Uyi Hey guys, welcome back to The Point Of View, my name is Uyi Agbontaen and in today's episode I sat down with mycologist Darren LeBaron. We got into everything related to mushrooms,

00:15 Darren psychedelics and different states of consciousness. So, on to the show. Darren, thank you for coming down man, I really appreciate it. I appreciate the invitation to come down man and share. You're a mycologist, so maybe we'll start off with what is a mycologist? Mycology is basically the study of the myco world, which is mycelium, which is mushrooms, which is fungus. So, all those names that we may be more familiar with are under the banner or the umbrella of mycology. So, just a study of fungi.

00:50 Uyi It's crazy how now mycology and interest in mushrooms and in fungus is kind of exploding, right? It's like, I was going to say an awakening, but maybe I'd say a reawakening, because I feel like in the 60s there was this explosion, people were like discovering for the first time in the West anyway, but oh, there's all these experiences that can be had with mushrooms and people were getting really invested in alternative states of consciousness. And then it kind of died out with things like the war on drugs and limitations on what people could access. But now there's a real big interest again in mycology, not even just on the psychedelic side, but even on the health side, right? People are now looking at it as an alternative form of treatment and alternative medicine, dealing with anxieties, OCD, PTSD. So, it's crazy, like it's amazing what's happening now in that world.

01:38 Darren Yeah, yeah. Well, again, I think like, in all honesty, everything's just kind of coming full circle. It's where it started. We had to go through whatever we had to go through as humanity to come back to understanding that the soil nature provides us with all that we need. We've always continued to search outside of ourselves, look for external things. And because we're in this physical world that we like to make things, there's going to be something that's going to help us or something that's going to save us when in actuality, all that we've ever needed has always been ground underneath our feet. And mushrooms are just reminding us, let's just say, remind us that they've always been there. They've always been doing it. They've always been sustaining every and anything that's ever come from the soil out of it. And they will continue to do it as long as we're in this type of experience. So, again, it's just our awareness, you know, like you mentioned the psychedelics, they're calling it the Renaissance. The third wave is the third time that this part of the world or people from these parts of the world are getting to hold the ball when it comes to psychedelics. And it's kind of like all eyes on you, you know, what you're going to do with it, how you're going to handle it, because the previous two times you've dropped the ball. The masses weren't privileged to the knowledge and information, but behind the scenes, the research and the studies hasn't stopped. So when it comes to the Renaissance, it's just like, oh, the masses are now getting access to at least the information. But, you know, I just had this conversation on the plane, just as far as, you know, like, if they legalize it, let's say, if I was just asked, oh, when is it going to be legal? When do you think they're going to make it legal? The research is showing really positive signs. And I'm like, well, after several petitions have been made to the government to decriminalize and legalize mushrooms along with other psychoactives, they made that clear a few months ago that they're not considering that for now. So I don't know how many more tens of thousands of signatures that's going to require for them to give people the opportunity to explore that. But let's say today, they say, all right, cool, it's been legalized, it's become really clear based on what's happened in America, primarily because that's where they made strides when it comes to the legalizing and the decriminalizing of these substances. What you find is that when you go to these places where they've been given a license, it's being made legal, basically, is there's a limit to actually can get access to that. So one, it's like legalization primarily for doctors to do their research, and that's just to do the research. That's not to administer it. That's not to distribute it. There's many levels and layers to the day when the lady that I just bumped into on the plane who says that she's challenged by an old depression, her sister's just having a mental health breakdown, she's flying from point A to point B to support her sister, and she wishes there was something alternative to what they've been told because the therapy and whatever medicine they've been given her sister isn't working. And I was just sitting there naive and she says, what do you think? I said, mushrooms. And she's like, yeah, we've kind of looked into that. And she didn't know who I was. I didn't know what her interests were, but we just had this conversation just about ultimately, who's going to be able to get access? Because when they do legalize and when they do give the permission and licenses for it to be distributed and administered, it's not for the masses. That's just become really clear what's happening around the world. It's for a select few, those who are privy to that, who have that knowledge and information firstly, and second, who can afford in America, the Netherlands, plays in Canada, where people are setting up these retreats and centers, and it's thousands of pounds for a week to six, seven days worth of treatment for one of these programs. Once again, this is just something that naturally just grows underneath your feet all over the world. Everybody's got access to it. But because of lack of knowledge, if you ain't got the knowledge, then you're not going to have the way to apply that knowledge. And that's why folks have just been making strides where other communities, I guess, are getting left behind or still have that same kind of negative narrative as in, oh, you got to be careful. It's deadly. It's this, it's that. And when tons and tons and tons of research is coming out suggesting that's not the case, and you've just been hoodwinked by Hollywood and all the other people that created this narrative around psychedelics being, you know, this negative thing.

05:07 Uyi Yeah, you've hit a lot of points in that two, three minutes. There's so many things that we can talk about. The knowledge part as well is fascinating. Now people have access to knowledge. I've been thinking about knowledge for a long time. Knowledge was historically treated as being sacred. I'm not just talking about psychedelics, just knowledge in itself. It was never open to a lot of people. If you think about going back to ancient times, being able to read the stars or being able to just read, this was hidden knowledge. That's right. Sacred was secret. It was secret and it was sacred. That wasn't available for thousands and thousands and thousands of years for most people. Because, you know, people, we hear this term, knowledge is power, it is power. But I don't really think people realise how much power they can have by having access to information. And then obviously now the internet came about and obviously now people are looking into things like psychedelics, mushrooms, alternative ways of living, alternative cultures, counterculture, and they have access to this information. It was interesting as you said that it's now available to the masses, but maybe

06:11 Darren it's not suitable for the masses. Well, it's twofold. So one, if you're asking Darren, Darren believes that everybody should have access to the information and everybody should have access to the decision of what they want to do with their mind and their body. I don't think anybody really should be allowed to come in between that. Obviously in the status of the countries that, you know, most of us are from and live in, there's laws and things in place that prevent people from harming themselves as it would be the war on drugs and so forth. On the positive side, obviously, because there's a lack of information about this stuff and people need to be educated, you don't want to just be jumping in head first into this space. What are psychedelics? What do they do? How do they impact you? The basic information, but the access, even if you do have the knowledge and have the information, you've done the research, you may not financially, you just may not be able to financially afford to sign up for the doctors who have been given a license to administer this stuff. You're not going to have access to it. For me, that's really important when people are campaigning for legalisation. You know, at the end of the day, there's quite a few legal as well as illegal things that circulate the world right now, like alcohol being one of them legal, but one of the number one killers on planet Earth. A hundred percent. Whereas in the things that we- Tobacco. There you go. And then when we think of the things that are illegal, that are bad for you, you know, we come to find that they're not as bad as Hollywood or whoever's given you your narrative has told you about. And when I say Hollywood, just just the media in general, because more recently, what we have seen is that Dr. Professor Knott based in the UK, he was commissioned to basically do all the studies on recreational drugs and look at how harmful drugs are in the grand scheme of things. I'm happy to say that my guys got relegated. They were bottom of the league as far as the concerns that one should have about partaking in mushrooms, for example, whereas the champions league places were taken by the obvious guys, you know, your cocaine and tobacco and legal drugs, as well as prescription based drugs were on there and way higher up on the league. And as I said, mushrooms got relegated that season, man, because they were the bottom of the league, bottom of the table. They were the most safest recreational drug, for lack of a better word, that one could be using if that's the choice that you chose to take. So when you're looking at medicine and therapy and all the rest of it, just to think that you're looking at something that grows all over the place is free. Everyone on the planet is their birthright to access this stuff. And there's just somebody in the middle controlling who gets the access. And there's a narrative that says,

08:24 Uyi oh, it's for your safety. But in my humble opinion, it's not necessarily for the safety of the masses. It's crazy that there is a taboo around drugs, psychedelics, recreational drugs. And I guess it's because we've been programmed, right? There's been a narrative that's come from the powers that be and the media obviously represents the powers that be. And we've been told kids drugs are bad, say no to drugs, this will happen to your brain, you'll have these bad experiences. The most harmful drug is available. Alcohol, which is the most harmful drug out of it is freely available. That is fine. So the amount of deaths, the amount of harm to your own health, liver, harm to relationships, and yet that's fine. You can get on a plane and you can order a drink. And then the next one, tobacco, obviously living in Europe, they're taking steps to try and limit people's access to tobacco. They're very aware of the health consequences. You walk into Sainsbury's and the tobacco is hidden behind the screen. And when you open the screen, the tobacco has to have an image of like a diseased lung or amputated leg, but you can still buy it. You can still buy it. You know, these drugs are fine. Those drugs are bad. So caffeine, fine. Opiates that are legal,

09:31 Darren fine. Very addictive. But then alternatives, no, you can't have those. It's kind of weird. Man, the powers that be, as you know, they can't pattern nature. They try though. Yeah, they try really hard. But the reality is that they can't and nature provides us with all of it. So their job for a very long time was just to create synthetic counterparts to the original things so they can pattern it, they can package it. We've just got to be aware that even just some of the day to day things like a carrot, all these things have just been manipulated with, there were original versions of them. Yeah, that's a good point. And down the line, like if you go into what you would call a supermarket, just know that's like a hybrid factory. There's not many foods in there. You could call it a potato, a carrot, a tomato. They've all been manipulated. They've all been engineered in ways so that they could just look good on the shelf for you when you want to buy it. And we got so used to that, that we're comfortable just eating what I call computer food. It's like fake computer foods, like just being printed out of the machine. And that is organic. That's what they sell to us as organic. And then what really is organic, we look at and we'll turn our nose down because it's still got the soil and slugs eating a bit of it. Funny shape, funny colour. Yeah, all the food that will be considered ugly and can't make the shelves are perfectly fine and viable, got all the nutritional content that's required. And then you've got to go and sell it to people at a cheaper price because you have the mind control of what you would expect to see at a supermarket and expecting to see a carrot orange. And a carrot is only orange because the Dutch were ruling food trade at the time and wanted the carrots to represent their national colour. So they engineered carrots to be orange and that's why they're orange. There's so many stories when it comes to just the food, let alone when they get

11:00 Uyi into the drugs, let alone when you're getting into psychotropic drugs and dealing with mental health. 100% agriculture society has cultivated food to look like that. It's artificial selection. Even the animals we eat, there's a reason a chicken that we eat looks like that. Dairy cows would never look like that because what would be the benefit for a cow to have huge udders and hardly be able to move from a predator. So spores are everywhere and we breathe them in. We don't even think about it and you touch on this as well. It's essential to the cycle of life. Without

11:31 Darren fungus we wouldn't be here. That's right, simple as that. That's my message. Once I was sitting as a student in adulthood that was studying this stuff, I just couldn't believe that I was learning about this in adulthood. Like why am I only learning about this now? You know we have sayings like ashes to ashes, dust to dust, we come from the soil, we go back to the soil and as farmers, gardeners, we know how important the soil is. None of that happens without mushrooms. None of it. I do this. It's my profession now. So when I go out and people say, oh what do you do? I'm like, oh just mushrooms. Oh you've got to be careful with mushrooms. There's deadly mushrooms, there's poisonous mushrooms. You've got to be careful when you're out picking them. And then even when you get into the world conscious community, the narrative is, oh yeah mushrooms are good for microdosing, depression, anxiety. Mushrooms are just fun guys man. I'm not excusing the pun. There's a lot more that they bring to the table than just those narratives. So in my experiences in working with them, cultivating them, partaking, eating them and stuff, it's like yeah man they just ask me and other people I guess to just spread the spores in ways where we can get a slightly different narrative around that. So just to think that we know how important plants are and everybody's plant base, plant this and 90% of the plants on planet earth are dependent upon mushrooms. All the information, all the data, all the nutrients that are shared and distributed amongst the plants. Now we know how important plants are to us. We wouldn't be able to breathe without them. So when we look at the chain and we go back to source, who should we give the credit to you know? How did you get here? You've got parents, you've got grandparents, you've got to go back to source. When it comes to a lot of things in life now you find out that you're going to go back to mushrooms. It's crazy, it's crazy. You know if you're talking about you like as human beings, where do human beings from? You follow the trail back and you find out the first living organism to make it onto land on what we call planet earth was a mushroom. And we're just an extension of that mushroom project or that mushroom experience that has taken you know, trillions of years to get to where it is now but we're just an extension of that.

13:16 Uyi Yeah we do value plants. People are a bit more aware of oh you know we shouldn't be cutting down the trees in the Amazon. But how do the trees communicate? Literally trees talk to each other. There are families and they look after their younglings which is another thing that people don't really think about but they communicate through mushrooms. It's just crazy how dependent life is on fungus. If there were no fungus, there were no mushrooms, there would be no life enough.

13:40 Darren Yeah we've got some research now, can't break it down scientifically for you right now but I'd love to come back and we could if you wanted to but mushrooms make the rain bro. Oh really? That's some of the latest research you know. Like we're talking about as above so below like for the most part that part of the mushroom that is the living and breathing organism that does the thing is called mycelium. That's the network, the fungal network and primarily it's underground, it's in the soil, it's behind stuff, it's in between the bark and the main core of the tree. It's always hidden behind underneath, that's where it likes to exist. Every now and then it pops up usually as a fruit and body of mushroom for two, three days, hangs out and then goes back after it's done what it needs to do which is spreading the spores. But we do know for sure that mushrooms, the key ingredient being spores which is the reproductive portion of the mushroom, basically are not from earth. They have alien origins so you know that they've come from beyond our solar system into our solar system. They basically hold space, they're the facilitators of our planet. You know I know they're loaded words at this moment but mushrooms have come just like anybody who's learned knows about cultivating mushrooms, they colonize their substrate, that's what we call it. They take over the substrate so if mushrooms were to come and inoculate this table, some spores came in, all it takes is these two microscopic spores to hook up but once they hook up they produce something that's known as hyphae, that's like the first physical expression of the mushroom form. Then two hyphae need to come together and they form into mycelium. Then all these different mycelium knots threads are going to connect and eventually it would just turn this wooden table into a mummy, that's what I like to call it, the mummy. It turns it all white, it takes it over and that's what we do as cultivators. We know that whether it's a straw bag, a bag of farmyard manure or some grain whatever we're cultivating our mushrooms on, we're doing that like in a bag, in a jar, whatever it may be and if we get our heads around it that that's exactly what mushrooms have done with planet earth, that the mushrooms have inoculated and have taken over, they've colonised it and they create life from it and we are one of those forms of life that have been created but with

15:32 Uyi this intelligence. Like an obvious example is when you see food rotting, that's the fungus going to work right and you actually said it to some people, be like what does he mean mushrooms are the fruit and body? The mushroom is like the flower of the fungus basically so when we're saying mushrooms because we've been like throwing this term mushrooms mushrooms actually it's the fungus

15:49 Darren that we're talking about. Yeah that's right because the body we call it a fruit and body because mushrooms are just that they're fruit they're the fruit and fruit is just a reproductive organ which is carrying the flower, the fruit portion which obviously carries the seed which allows that organism to continue its life. That's why I'm going back to move forward but when I first started doing the horticultural stuff and the guys that I was being trained by sharing information with used to come up with these sayings and one of them is an old saying you know but it was do we use the plants or are the plants using us? That's a good saying and it just looks at how plants have evolved to basically pimp us. Pimp humans and other animals man whether it's that they want to look good they want to taste good they've evolved to get to a certain point where we're tricked to go grab it eat it and continue its legacy and the whole idea is that we're gifting back you know what we've received if we eat food all those nutrients come from the soil when we're finished with those nutrients we're meant to give them back to the soil and that's like our way of recycling and keeping things going so all of these elements are part and parcel of like mushroom phenomenon. Mushroom are the first recyclers they're the first composters all the things that we think ah this is really good and sustainable for planet earth mushrooms have been doing it and they've been teaching us as examples for a long time many indigenous cultures are aware of this because they set up their societies around mushrooms and mushroom cultivation and soil or following the pastoral animals who have got this relationship with the soil or pastures which then produce the shit which then the mushrooms grow on as a farmer you're going to see that man and generation after generation there's going to be mythologies there's going to be folklore there's going to be traditions and customs geared around that stuff and then that's what was considered sacred and that's what eventually became secret and that's then why you know we ask these questions are we using the plants or they're using us these kind of old wives tales but the wise man or the wise woman had that type of knowledge and information and that's what was then shared

17:33 Uyi with the masses the masses were privy to this stuff. I like what you said actually that's a good saying because there's almost a sense that sometimes we detach ourselves as humans from nature we feel like we're humans and nature's over there we're humans and the animals are over there the plants are over there we're separate actually the hunter-gatherer would collect his fruit eat it go to ship and wow that plant spread its seeds now right it's done it deliberately it knows exactly what it was doing to attract us as animals to go and pick it it's funny because we look at bees and we're like oh yeah well the bees have this symbiotic relationship with the plants and the

18:08 Darren flowers but we don't factor ourselves into that process. We are a big missing link right at the moment because of how intelligent and smart I guess we've become and so far removed or separated from nature when actually that was the teacher that has always been the teacher will continue to be the teacher we've learned pretty much all that we've learned you mentioned at the beginning observing the stars you know I always say things to people like do you know when your birthday is it's like obviously cool so knowing my birthday is like imagine you didn't I think you didn't know when your birthday was and you just had to just look up in the sky and start working it out where would you start you know what I'm saying but there's some people who have done that they sat down and they were able to pass that on and this is the secret sacred kind of information and we take it for granted oh yeah most definitely most definitely and then we see ourselves as like so advanced now that we don't even need to kind of really discuss these things we've got the internet got AI technology coming through now that can just think for you I was watching a video just now the guys created a AI app for school students so they could just do all their coursework and exams

19:03 Uyi chat gbt chat gbt I've not even used it yet I'm actually kind of worried about it in the sense that I'm not like anti-technology it's a brave new world and that's kind of exciting but at the same time are we giving up something because it's just easier do you know what I mean like so people are now using chat gbt and you can you can do your homework you can write a letter you can write a whole screenplay write a book on it and it does it for you and that's the first iteration are we going to lose things like our nature our creativity and you know when you have those random conversations with your friend if society broke down because a lot of people live in these concrete jungles these cities and in a city we're so reliant on the system you're so reliant on the system if everything broke down I would not know how to survive I don't think of myself as a dumb guy but I don't know how to cultivate food I don't know how to irrigate water I don't know how to make medicines I don't know I'm reliant on the system I'm part of that system and actually we're so advanced but if everything went to shit tomorrow whatever natural disaster post-apocalyptic

20:06 Darren nuclear war lots of people would die because we are so out of touch with how to live that's why you know I spent like the last 10 years working a lot in schools and was invited by schools to go in there and you know start working with the younger generation because you know like in the matrix they say you know when you're too far gone you're too far gone for the most part so adults it's like the hacking that you would need to do to get in there to break it down might be more challenging than just investing in the future but yeah spending a lot of time with young people schools and young people's provisions and reminding them because young people just need a little reminding that you are nature you come from nature you know whether you know it or not like it or not and just explaining that getting them to get comfortable with it again getting them to walk and touch the grass a tree look at a butterfly a worm you know just some basic things that reintroduce them to their true nature yeah you know you see it you know like as I said I work with some of the so-called hardest to reach what they were called gangsters and so forth and that's all it takes man it just takes me to get them down to Epping Forest get them out of their comfortable zone that might be the end if they're in the ends you know where there's beef and politics all right we're gonna get you out of there and you can relax because none of your ops are around and we're gonna go to the forest it's been a day in the forest yeah and like none of them want to come initially it doesn't make sense to them forest why what and by the end of it whether it's the day the week or the term that I'm working with them me other folks that I work with have seen what happens when you reintroduce an innocent child to nature and then what happens when you keep them connected to nature rather than you know there's organic technology out there but it's being replaced with synthetic technology so for me it was like if we put nature in front of them more and having fun nature on that journey to the forest they're gonna see butterflies be like sir what's this and then we get other learning experiences so these all the experiences that I've or some of them that I've had with young people who realize that oh you see yourself as separate from nature when you are nature you're from nature you're part of nature and once they get it because it's not hard to get it you're like you see changes man you see shifts and changes and that's with adults alike yeah but you know at the same time most of us are disconnected you know I'm a product of a concrete jungle man born and bred in East London when I had my first experiences that woke me up for real for real for real was when I went to the Caribbean for the first time where my folks are from I'm looking at banana trees and mango trees and people look at me like I'm nuts you know my own family like what's up it's a mango tree bro it's a banana tree like these are like my favorite fruits I've never seen this in my life bro ever my family look at me like all right come on let's just show him all banana trees and mango he's like oh you want to see him like yeah by the end of it I remember my cousin resting peace he's no longer here but he was just like yo bro you're actually making me appreciate where I'm from what I've got around me because yeah I take you for granted that we've got mango trees and banana trees and I can just pick cherries and do this and that day in day out we're forced to go and buy this fake computer food from the stores again I'm you know I'm going back and forth but these are the same things I've learned in schools and food that I think applies to the psychedelic space of mushrooms as well there's some people who don't have a clue that have been kind of controlling our narrative and that's why we feel separated or segregated from mushrooms and things like that I guess there's people like myself that are just out here just to remind people that you are just that what you think you're separate from you're actually it

23:12 Uyi there's no running away from it I love that man a couple weeks ago I was speaking to another guest he wrote a book and he's interested in people's stories and how you can use your story to tell your brand and to engage with people but one of the things he asked me in the podcast he said oh what's your favorite film and I was like ah the matrix right and I think it probably resonates with a lot of people because it's the idea that there is a system and not everybody is aware that they are stuck in this system but this system is not how life should be and some people wake up they know that this isn't how I'm supposed to be Morpheus is talking to Neo and he goes some minds can't be unplugged in fact he says to Neo there's a risk unplugging you because some people are so embedded in the system that it's too late for them I think a lot of people feel that maybe this isn't how life is supposed to be but it is life and they carry on with the system and what was wild about what you said as well was that you went home to the Caribbean and you saw nature and you were like wow this is amazing, the behaviorists have said this before the reason we go on holiday is to get back in touch with nature people think we go on holiday to have a break it's not because when we go on holiday when you live in a city what do you do you go to the beach you go to the forest you go to the mountains why do you go there on holiday why don't you just go on holiday to another city when people want a real holiday I want to be in the beach I want to be by the sea I want to walk through the mountains there is a reason why we're doing that what really got your

24:36 Darren interest in nature and mycology what was the thing that started you off on this? I always say I just say I just say the same way I say it all the time man like I honestly do feel I was born with these interest and curiosities I remember in nursery I remember in primary school and definitely a lot of times in secondary school just being told that I'm that kind of challenging student and that was simply because I asked a lot of questions questions that I didn't know the answers to that's why I asked but I felt like the people who were trained to give me the answers didn't know the answers either and you know that got me in trouble at times at school but I got into adulthood and was able to then ask myself those same questions that I asked my teachers and went out and studied it for myself and I always say you know I kind of started in history class being born and bred and first generation here knowing that my family's from Barbados had never been at that time knowing that originally we come from Africa where in Africa I don't know I don't want to sit here not knowing I'm just one of those guys I want to know so I'm gonna ask my people if they don't know that I'm gonna go wherever I can those days it was the library remember libraries I used to go to the library man there was stuff that I wanted it's like yeah I'm returning the books and I want more information it just wasn't readily available so that curiosity and that interest and just wanting to know myself has been there from day one having children was really important in me wanting to make sure that I could feed and clothe and protect my family just like you I was like right I don't even have to grow food like I come from a lineage of people who know how to grow food you get to the UK for some how another all the skill set has dropped me and my home is talking about this the other day man just as far as like do you remember like our uncles and our grandads like they could do everything yeah do everything I could fix a car there's a roof problem something with the plumbing I could sort out everything they were multi-skilled individuals I'm just used to picking up the phone and calling you know for the help for the aid for the support but as I said before then I was just always interested I was putting on events if there's somebody who inspired me if you inspire me I'll be like I've got to get that guy in the room with some of my people so I became an event organizer I didn't plan to become an event organizer but like yo I just read your book I think it's amazing I've got a hundred other people that would think it's amazing but they just don't know about the book so I'm gonna tell them and if you come along you can actually tell them more about your works and that's how I started doing it and then just down the line I was then nudged by some of my teachers be like yo it's time for you to step up and share your knowledge and information so I've gone and explored and gone into those things so these were all the things that just continued then you're open up oh so we was doing this spiritual practice but when I read what the church or Hollywood or anybody else says we was doing they call it Voodoo and black magic juju again it's loaded let me leave all that alone and just explore it from the horse's mouth you know let the lion tell its own story then I found out so this is what we do spiritually this is where our power lies so to speak this is where you're in that space and you find out are they into dream work and they're into plant technology and I'm like oh so this mushroom stuff it is ancient it's not just what the white boys I went to school with in Camden were doing back in the days and I just thought they were druggies yeah they were cool don't get me wrong but you know I was raised by a Grange Hill you know like just saying no Zammo having overdoses in the toilet like now I've seen all those images and those are the guys that look like I'm like no leave all that alone but again I just had to come full circle on my own journey to realize all this stuff I was searching for in my teens I found out in my adulthood what it really is kind of thing these were the questions I was asking back in the days but nobody could really give me the answers to it now I found at least answers for myself and that's how it led to me going out there and teaching more and more as I said I kind of came full circle of looking into self-discovery was into yoga meditation different practices psychedelics kept on coming up I knew that I knew about psychedelics just a word but it was all the negative narrative and it kind of led me to this book called DMT the spirit molecule and then I read that book and then watched documentary and everything that I bloody felt like I was searching for in life was in captured in the testimonies of the people who were part of these DMT trials and cut a long story short they was given DMT comparing it with near-death experiences people who had near-death experiences DMT experiences and placebos but when I was reading the testimonies of the people who actually got the DMT I was like that's what I've been wanting man there's like yeah we took the DMT and I'll transport it back to ancient Egypt and then I became a pharaoh and I was like hey that's what I've been doing all these dream things for and yoga to have those kind of experiences you're telling me you and I was like no but that's a drug though it's a drug it's a drug and I found out how this so-called drug or at least the chemical is actually in the human body it's actually in many things in nature it's like really natural like okay so again somebody was giving me a narrative that didn't serve me well in between that book me then saying let me really dig a bit deeper I was reintroduced to so this is where I'll wrap it up I was reintroduced to Kalindi EE and his works and then he's like the OG of this space you know he's no longer physically here we made the transition just coming up to three years ago in April will be his anniversary he was out there spreading the spores way before I'd even thought about what a spore was and was out there talking about martial arts was birthed out of the psychedelic experience the mushroom you know yoga meditation swings roundabouts traffic lights you name all these things that came out of psychedelics and stuff like that and the healing work and stuff that we're utilising psychedelics for that's just like a very small part of it we're selling ourselves short we're doing a disservice to the technology as we refer to it if we just pitch it sell it talk to it as if it's just a medicine when there's a whole lot more it has to offer so between reading DMT having my first experience and coming across Kalindi's work that was it then he was the guy I was like

29:47 Uyi yo you need to get out then start sharing it's interesting like you said that actually there is more than the narrative that I've been told in fact the narrative I've been told is framed in such a certain way that it almost discourages me to learn about the other things you know like you said like religion they used to refer to as paganism pagan beliefs right paganism was a dirty word it's slowly changing because people are now refining spirituality whether that's African whether that's european whether that's native american people are kind of getting back in touch with it people are now rediscovering oh actually there were other philosophies there were other approaches and perspectives on life which are actually much older than our modern

30:28 Darren interpretation of Stephanie of our origins of what life is of what our purpose is sure sure so you know with that said that's why some of the work that I'll teach and share is really about just meeting people where they're at because me so I'm like I'm very much into religion mythology just by default I guess now but what I am aware of and some people really believe you know like they really believe because that's all they know so me being privy to what I'm privy to I've had some and I'm around some people who they newly found what awake and they condemn and demonize everything that they now know so now they know let's say I know I'm in the know they're going to demonize their religion because you know where they come from it's like oh that's what trapped me and that might be the case that was your narrative you know that was given to your parents that parents then passed on to you so for me rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water it's like let's just start where people are at that's why I have a presentation called psychedelics and religion because what I understood was that most of the people that I'm trying to reach they've got two main teachers and that's religion and Hollywood and now the new generation the other god is game consoles the phone that's what you're competing with if they're not hearing it from there remember there was a time if the priest didn't tell you yeah now it's like if tick tock doesn't tell you what's trendy and what's not then you know what I'm saying so for me you've got to meet people where they're at so I do presentation called psychedelics and religion we can go through them one by one where you don't need to throw your religion out and you also don't need to demonize it and or look at it in a way where it can't now be used from the new lens that you have you can see your old religion through a new lens so to speak you don't need to throw it out you don't need to demonize it or you know start talking down on it it just creates for me I'd like to think amazing conversations it does just be like oh so you know like in the church when you go to holy communion did anybody communicate with the holy because that's what holy communion is about like what do you think that's all about because when you follow other traditions who have holy communion they might not call it holy communion but the Eucharist having a blessed sacrament and allowing the congregation to partake in it so they can have holy communion there's some other traditions that they say yeah I really communicate with the holy meaning they communicate with their god the source their ancestors whatever their next level next tier up of beings are that they interact with to get knowledge and information they really do do it and I'm saying that to say that I've been in a few churches over the years and for the most part when they hand out that wafer it doesn't allow you to have holy communication man that's just a wafer I definitely know they don't give out enough wine for you to get into that auto state because alcohol can do you know work as well because it's spirit you know I'm saying we're using the right set and setting but again that you've not been given it's not been given to you in the true form that it was given to man at one point at a time to allow you to have that level of communication then what that does for you bro is the most important thing I think we need in this day and time and that is to know people don't know because we've been taught to believe yeah it's as simple as that man we've got a bag load of believers out here and what I've learned is you can believe in anything I used to be in the two fairy father Christmas Jesus Superman spider man god those are all believable things but there's a difference when you know and these traditions that allowed you to have holy communication when you was a kid because you wouldn't wait till you're in your 30s 40s having the midlife crisis back up against the wall oh let me try microdosing you're looking for something this is your birthright is what you're born into this what you're going to find out you're gonna be eight nine ten eleven twelve maybe once you start hitting that pubic space you know whatever cult traditions are you're going to be introduced to this stuff and then what that's going to mean is that you're going to be an eight nine ten eleven year old who knows you don't have to believe that was around there is the boogeyman or over there is this like but I know he don't exist there but I know this does I have seen the bee man with the human body who comes around every year and tells us that the bees are going that way and that's where we can get the honey we know this there's certain tribes who know they interact and they know and they don't have to believe and then what's happened is they remove direct access and therefore somebody who does have the access and say well I went down there and this is what they're saying so I took the mushroom I spoke to God and this is what God said and like I just got to believe what you say people don't know because they don't have the direct experience because when you have the experience you know you don't need to

34:31 Uyi believe that's what happened to me and like there is no turning back after that I agree with you 100 percent I look at the way that Africans and Caribbeans have engaged with Christianity and when you talk about the holy communion you know I've literally been in evangelical churches and I've seen people receive the holy spirit I've seen it I've been there when people start speaking tongues and I've been in a Roman Catholic church and it's very somber and you just go up you get your wafer and you go and sit back down again it's very different but it's almost like even with the Afro-Caribbean community something's calling them back to you know this is how we're supposed to engage with our spirituality and then you get you know Muslims and you get the Sufism they're looking for more than just the fundamentals we want them to go beyond Christianity you have the Gnostics and they're getting into more like they know some people deep down know there's something more and then there's also that theory that well actually a lot of these texts when you hear the stories and you listen to the stories these experiences must have only been encountered through psychedelics through alternative experiences because the language and the imagery is so vivid seeing a wheel of fire seeing angels with a thousand wings and a head of an ox and a head of a lion and a head of a sheep a being of a thousand eyes seeing giants you know how do they encounter those experiences if they were not using something to have those exchanges some people have the theory that they did use drugs for want of a better word they did use things to have these encounters you talked about wine even tobacco it was a sacred thing to do whereas now we're just like no it's just recreational it's just for fun but there was actually a spirituality to it it's weird now you look at people who are kind of conservative with their religion as I already said the vedic systems are one of the oldest religious systems in the world and yet they'll be like no no we don't want to get involved in any partaking of any substances and you're like but

36:18 Darren the shamans did the gurus did do that but now you don't want to oh yeah there's like a misconception for some reason other that like we're evolving so there was a time when we needed to use those stuff but now we've got the ability to do it without I beg to differ there's actually been tests that have been done where they've got some of the most highest elite spiritual people supposedly at least and got them in a room and got them to do mushrooms and lsd and stuff when they came out the room they're like this isn't what happens to me when i'm doing meditation this is what happened like yeah this is something different because it is something different not to say that you can't reach certain levels and heights through breath work through meditation and yoga yeah obviously you can but this is a different yeah it's a different experience man that's all I can say is and I'll say maybe maybe like I'll acknowledge that I may not be the best meditator but may not be good at yoga and I've not met the highest of the highest of the yogis and the agoris and the sadhus I haven't sat at their feet so I don't know for sure but what I do know is the ones who have gone in and had these novel states of experiences through breath work through whatever they come I can say yo this is a totally different walk in the park there's something within this experience that I couldn't achieve doing my breath work or doing my yoga or whatever and that's because it's the other way around like I was taught let me just say at least I was taught that the psychotic experience birth these things birth these technologies these practices these new skill sets that we could develop and they're complementary it's not like one versus the other one without the other they go together like it's mushrooms and kung fu they go together it's like mushrooms and meditation mushrooms and yoga mushrooms and music mushrooms and art wherever you're into it's a complementary technology and when you're about to do your qigong you take your mushrooms and then you see the energy that you sometimes feel and when you see it as we come from a world where we say seeing is believing a lot of these things when you start seeing it's like this stuff is really real man this stuff is really real and that removes doubt that removes fear that removes the idea of not knowing you know because you've seen an experience and for me that's what religion has done an amazing job of stepping in and creating a middleman somebody who speaks on our behalf but again just like you said to come full circle we can't get away from it man because when you go into one of those evangelists or baptist church where they're going in you're like well that's just like a europe ceremony you know when they're saying that you know shangles just possess somebody and i'm seeing what you're doing there i'm seeing what's going on there mate and that looks suspect to me that's like the same thing going on yeah and

38:43 Uyi what is going on it's weird because actually you know my dad will be like he's very religious he's a firm christian believer but at the same time he'll say but i still believe in your beliefs he'll say they are one and the same and actually when you look at the european christianity because christianity wasn't european shock to some people's ears but when you look at the european christianity that will spread around the world when it would go from region to region culture to culture that culture would kind of assimilate it with their own traditional practices which is why when you go to latin america and you look at the saints they represent their old gods and you go to africa and they're like this is how we perceive the saints this is how we perceive jesus this is how we perceive the creator god this is how we've perceived the holy spirit and they link it to as you said shango and ogun and olokun you know they link it whereas i feel europe kind of lost that connection with their old gods there was this book called american gods yeah yeah yeah so neil gaiman he started off as a comic book writer and then he went on to write novels and it's an interesting concept that when people went to the americas they brought their old gods with them but then they kind of forgot those old gods and they adopted new gods right one of the new gods was christianity but then actually the newer gods were and you already talked about this technology money the digital gods these are different gods we kind of worship because for me the religion is just the ritual the practice but where's the soul to it and i feel especially in the west people are waking up to ah i'm missing the soul i need to go back to spirituality and one route i can use to go back to that is things like mushrooms things like psychedelics so we've thrown around this term psychedelics and everybody hears psychedelics but actually what's a definition

40:24 Darren of psychedelics because everyone hears it but what is a psychedelic okay so the word if we just break down the word psychedelic means to manifest the psyche to make the psyche clear psychedelic to manifest to make the psyche the mind clear that's what they do they allow you these plants these fungus these forms these chemicals allow you to go inside your mind a lot of people would not know that at all there's different terms that are thrown around obviously psychedelic being a popular hallucinogens you know and that gives people the impression that it's something that you hallucinate you don't see it it's not really there again i beg to differ i really do feel like it's things that are there that you get an eyesight on now that you usually don't see as you know these cameras are recording around us there's things floating around this room that we can't see there's certain things that these cameras can see that we can't see vice versa there's just things out there that birds see spiders see what psychoteks do it is allow you to see those things that you normally don't get to see and some people say oh that's not for humans to see kind of thing but again i'll say like these things happen naturally you know and can occur and as i said a lot of our customs that we've developed that have made super societies and cultures were birthed out of these disciplines and these practices so with that said the last term that i'll share is entheogen psychedelics or entheogens and psychedelics is just that what i mentioned and entheogens means to generate the god or divine the theos the deos the god archetype within so it's basically just saying that god is inside of you and when you take these things you activate or generate the god or that god force or lack of a better title inside of yourself like what happens when you go inside your body you find everything that exists outside there is inside of you so you're on adventure playground you're a world you're a universe within yourself and there's so many places within yourself that are yet to be explored and that's what this journey allows you i'm not saying there's not no external factors not external things that you can experience but that yeah there's a lot of narratives that i believe that we could change about what these things are to go inside your mind isn't bad you know to generate the god or divine with you isn't bad and that's why these terms were emptied and is being used more recently as using psychedelics in a more conscious spiritual approach whereas in psychedelics i guess you could just go to Camden Palace on Friday night and take some psychedelics and that wouldn't be considered spiritual again i beg to differ i do feel that dance ceremony music all these things are spiritual practices within themselves and if you combine them again with psychedelics they can be really powerful so for me going back there all these terms are loaded and we've just basically got to kind of educate people about what they really are so some people approach it strictly from that medicinal perspective like it's a medicine again i say it's not a medicine it's not the be all and end all but it can be used as a medicine some people on this spiritual journey they're like i'm not trying to do the healing work i'm trying to develop spiritually i'm trying to communicate with my ancestors you know and there's just different approaches so i'm just saying all that to say that depending on how you use it your intention a lot of the term determines what you would call it so some people say plant medicine for me they're all one in the same it's just like different routes to the same place

43:24 Uyi what i didn't think about much until i started to look into what you were doing was the African connection to psychedelics you've been doing research into that African experience and

43:35 Darren engagement with plant medicine what did you kind of discover there history was correct that's one thing they taught me in school there was like our lifestyle in Africa when we're talking about the peoples there's only two groups that it could possibly be on planet earth you find one of them that we were called today primarily in the Congo region another group you find primarily in the southern parts of Africa South Africa that were the earliest groups that we know on planet earth to this day in this current cycle at least and have populated planet earth this is what the history books say is what science channel says and all these kind of programs so once i discovered that and had that down pact is like well i wonder if they use psychedelics i wonder if adam and eve use psychedelics this is what they say about Africa it's one of the most diverse plant places on planet earth i'm saying as far as the continent all the different plants fauna foliage that you've got access to these are very much a plant type of people that you find on the continent why wouldn't they be using psychedelics and i was challenged as well as frustrated by going to all these different conferences and stuff and being told there's one over there that we know about that's iboga you know that's good for hearing addicts alcohol recovery opiate drug addictions and stuff like that you know like it was usually from the Congo from like central western africa did they have hearing addicts rolling around in Gabon and the Congo and stuff i don't think so so i wonder what they have to say about it and that was kind of just some of the first steps that i took to what into hair what the lion's got to say about his own story man and not somebody else and then what you find out wherever you go in the world bro it don't matter what group what tribe and you say so why was you gifted this psychedelic what does this psychedelic do for you and they pretty much all say the same thing it's so we can pick up the phone and et phone home it's to call home to the ancestors it's to go to the unseen room it's to go to the places and spaces where we came from when we go back to they're not saying that i use ayahuasca for ptsd i use ayahuasca for anxiety or depression it's none of that it's just straight yo this is the phone bro how accessible was the information and how open were people was it easy to find this information because i think it would have been harder okay okay so there's a couple things so one what's really cool is we mentioned at the very beginning about sacred and secrets like a lot of this information still is considered sacred and secret so you can't just rock up and roll up anywhere and be like yes tell me about your psychedelics and your customs and what you do and how you go about it's like no bro you're not part of this community you weren't born in this community you married nobody in this community you can't just get that kind of knowledge and information so i've not been initiated into any of these organizations orders or societies but i either have done thorough research or i know people who have or i've rubbed shoulders very closely with the people that are part of these traditions and customs didn't just be like ah tell me about your mythology yeah tell me about the this tell me like they might not say it's like but you start with now oh yeah so the young boy he had to make this brew and then when he drunk the brew he's like okay like that is coded in the folklore in this code in the mythology and you've got to be privy to that stuff you're right originally to the point just as far as you know africa the psychedelics like it's coded in the mythology it's coded in the secret societies and in the dress in the clothing it's not just spewed and shared but yeah you need to be initiated man you needed to be part of this community and shown and proved that you're worthy of this knowledge and information my goal is with all that said pro is basically to make a narrative that is relevant to our people so when you ask like ah so what about psychedelics in africa there's a back load of psychedelics out there some of it is being revealed some of it hasn't been revealed but what it's about for me is us getting to a point where we can start having mature conversations about it me growing up my parents told me no leave it alone the tv was telling me that i saw zammo i saw ronald reagan and all those guys yeah they said it was impactful at the time and that shit worked and i must be considered a free thinker i'm saying person from long so moving forward we want to make sure that at least if your children grow up and are like dad i'm thinking about doing mushrooms you can be like okay and we could at least start to build on a conversation you might even be one of those parents like yeah i've been waiting for you man i've been so we could have this conversation you know because yeah i'm aware of this and i'm aware of that and blah blah blah and not to a point we're like why are you hearing that type of stuff like our parents yeah what you mean you want to do mushrooms you're crazy it's like that gets thrown out immediately and it's a wrap i would just like to think that my part in playing are always like you know people that look like us can be like i can see myself in them because i just thought it was a white hippie thing or it was just what they do in south america and stuff i didn't know that we deal

47:44 Uyi with this type of stuff i don't know why but when we think of psychedelics we think of like white hippies and obviously you've gone out there and you've done the work that you've spoken to the people you've done the reading you've had the experiences but someone who hasn't done that

47:56 Darren what kind of advice would you give it might sound airy fairy to folks but it's like you kind of like follow your heart follow your spirit more than trying to follow somebody that's what i'm want to steer people away from like guru worship yeah yeah because going back to this whole shamans and people spending six weeks in peru coming back they put the feather in their hair they put on a garb and going around saying that they're local shaman and they're healing people and stuff like there's a lot of that happening we're calling it psychedelic tourism it's got a name now you know i'm saying people are going you know spending top dollar to go to these retreats go to these places and in some cases being abused physically mentally sexually abused by the people who are coordinating all this stuff i'm saying that to say that you really need to do your due diligence you know i'm just saying as far as don't just because your friend at work is into this stuff like really know what you're doing make sure what you're doing you feel safe i would say soak up as much information you possibly can outside of people's own personal testimonies right because what starts happening you create these expectations of what's meant to happen when you're about to do it you're going to have a very unique bespoke experience and you cannot do much preparation for it in all honesty and that's why education is really important because when you get to the point of educating and you know that's going to give you confidence and once you have that confidence when you step into these spaces even when you do step up and you're a nervous rick you realize oh that's just part and parcel of this experience like i'm about to do something i've never done before i'm stepping into the unknown what else would it be like to be stepping into the unknown other than that like lindy would say just hold them to the bed or hold them to the floor and try not to fall off i'm saying and then learn about what they call set and setting and that's ultimately creating the set or should i say the setting is the environment and the set is your mindset so you just have to make sure that the environment you're in is conducive to what you would like to achieve and your mindset is in that place and nine times out of ten we do an amazing job of getting the space ready i'm gonna have my cushions i'm gonna have this i'm gonna have that but it's more difficult to get our mind in that space so it's basically not saying that oh today i feel perfectly balanced and ready for an experience no you might feel nervous anxious all those feelings might be there too but the main thing is that you're not coming out mad at the world me against the world just had an argument with my wife husband you know i'm sick of this job let me go and do this stuff now it's like now just being in a space where your head is not overwhelmed by your mundane things that are holding you back so that was the advice that i'll give my soul couple as much knowledge and information learn about set and setting be around the right people if you're brand new brand new then you're definitely going to want to create a community man i always say get your young people involved your children be honest let them know what you're doing what you're interested in whatever you find out share it with them especially you've got teenage children and stuff like that it's like the perfect opportunity to exchange knowledge and information

50:35 Uyi you know what i'm saying i like what you said about the mindset it sounds trivial but we've been talking about hollywood we're talking about films i watched wakanda forever black panther 2 you know they go through this ritual of how the black panther becomes the black panther he has to take a particular plant and then he has this spiritual experience he goes to see his ancestors and in a way you're like okay it's just like a hollywood story but then actually i just remember in the second black panther when the new black panther shuri goes to go through that ritual her experience is very different to the experience that her brother had but he was kind of in a good place and when shuri was going she was like full of rage and bitterness and when she goes to see her ancestors the person she sees is a guy called killmonger who was like the militant because that

51:17 Darren was her mindset and that's interesting because i use black panther as an example like you just said he has to take the flower hooks up with the ancestors that's how he gets his power to become the hero so in the same breath it's like where do your ancestors go when they make the transition when they die they go inside of you they live inside of you you know they go inside of you they are part of yourselves so when you have these thoughts wherever these thoughts might be coming from so some of it you know is like your own thoughts then you got all the mind control that's happening in the world right now you know place thoughts and stuff like that but a lot of the thoughts and inspirations are your ancestors does they live inside of you the voices in your head you know even to the point where in this society we say oh when you have voices in your head you know you're fucking schizophrenic excuse my language you're schizophrenic you know you're you're bipolar you're this you're that they give you all these titles to kind of suppress what's really going on because then they pump you up with all this medication and stuff and you don't really know what's going on but there are some parts in the world where when that takes place a lot okay so you're the babalao you're the ganga you're the priest you're the shaman you're the curandero you're the guy or the woman that's here the veil's open you've got this insight that most people are blind to we have all of those existences inside of us so we've got some really peaceful loving ancestors and people that have come through and we have some that are the warriors yeah and you know sometimes the warriors want to come out and play that's what i'm saying you would have been given the rights of passages in how to develop the discipline so you can channel that energy just like in all the kung fu movies like channel the energy it's like yeah because you

52:39 Uyi might take this stuff and the warriors pop up and one of the things that humans have always been looking for is immortality i want to live forever but you do live forever you know what i mean like i'm here because my ancestors are living forever through me literally they've passed my genetic information to me you know how much of an impact does that have on your personality on your experiences well they say actually children who were descendants of people who survived the holocaust when they were born they might have certain anxieties that were passed onto them

53:08 Darren yeah exactly exactly right it's deeper than we give it credit like i said because we've come from a place where we used to know because we would experience these things and we would knew that the afterlife of reincarnation some people call it reincarceration call it what you want it's real because through the test of time we've done our googles man before google we really checked like he looks like granddad he does this just like granddad did you know i'm saying like we've seen it there's no science experiment that can tell me if granny's sitting there she said

53:36 Uyi that is your grandfather yeah like that's your grandfather man like she would know you're absolutely right it's crazy how people people like you do exactly what your granddad did and you may have never met your granddad in your life you know carl segan astrophysicist a science educator if people don't know who he is and he would say you are star stuff and like you said the universe is in you we are the children of stars the reason you're here today is because there was a big bang 14 billion years ago and you're the descendant of it you literally are made from stars and it's like it's literal right the universe is in you but one last thing i wanted to talk to you about we actually kind of said in the beginning as well like there's this life cycle the ancients and even today people have used psychedelics to have that near-death experience that death journey right and that's ultimately everybody is on this journey knowing that it's going to be the end at some point i'd like to go into that with you what do you mean by it's a death journey that psychedelics might open

54:31 Darren up to people all right let me give you the felt from the ancient up until we are historically it's been really clear based on my research that most of the societies these secret societies european asian african ones are all geared around what we would call the mysteries of death and the mysteries of death also include the mysteries of sex because sex and death go hand in hand life and death is these cycles i was into this stuff for years but i really got it understanding the compost heap if anybody's into compost and it's there too it's coded in the compost heap too and it's as simple as that anything that was alive goes through a transformation and gives life to the new things that are about to come now in a psychedelic experience you could have what some people call an ego death or ego dissolution experience when what it can do i'm not saying it is or does but what it can do for people in my terms i'll say it lightened my load some people say i've removed some of my layers the personality the ego the part of me that i tell the world i am but isn't the be or an end or and there's other aspects to me it can help you unpack all of that type of stuff if you're asking down what i mean by the death so i could mean like a death of the idea of yourself the death and belief that you're somebody or something when you're more than that maybe but then the actual experience within the psychedelic experience where you're dying like you're having the experience where you're dying it literally feels like you're dying obviously people say well you don't know what it's like to die because you haven't died before that's what the ancient egyptians and the ancient asians in india and all the rest of it were able to master because they clocked that this is if not what happens when you die very similar to to where we're going to dedicate and create an actual rites of passage a whole damn ceremony like geared around this stuff what that meant was my understanding just to keep it really simple i said at the beginning this is mario world bro like a computer game and you don't really die that you can put your coins in it again and press continue player one yes like if you really knew that about this life that you lived in you would live a more liberated life because you wouldn't have the fear of death and all the things that come along with all the fear of associating or what people will say about you do this or people gonna laugh at me people gonna do like you just wouldn't care as much about those things because that's you know what we say like your ego your pride and all those things and i'm just saying that to say that psychedelics can help work with you on that stuff man like if you're a very proud proud person and at the same time that can actually hinder you from certain achievements but then also the lack of it and that's where psychedelics come in sometimes they're gonna lift you to give you more courage or be like brother you need to hold it down you're doing way too much like it's going to give you what you need and for me that's the death that's the metaphor of death within the experience but you can have literal experiences where you die and the main thing is what you realize is that i'm back in the room i didn't die and it's like so is death is anything going to die does it really die it just showed me things transfer one form turns

57:22 Uyi into another form pretty much every culture doesn't say it's the end but i like the way that for the ancient egyptians they literally felt that they shouldn't be afraid of death because death wasn't the end and i have heard that when people have been terminally ill and they've used psychedelics it's not cured them but it's made them comfortable with the process of dying it removes

57:44 Darren the anxiety that's some of the research like i'm saying ah now we're getting close to what this stuff is really about because once you get rid of the ptsd get rid of the anxiety you've dealt with it then what after that you know i'm saying so when they're doing these trials with dmt and say no it's like their death experience or giving them psilocybin treatment to cancer patients who've been told they got two three weeks you know months or however long it may be before they're no longer going to be here and they're taking the mushrooms and coming back with a smile on their face saying yo there's a party over there ready and waiting for me man i feel sorry about leaving you guys behind you know you got all this stuff going on i'm saying i'll plug it up they're in a better place in space and then what you realize it's like most cultures man if you just take the time out to observe don't judge and just see what they're about you see that they're right on the money and whether you go to mexico they got day of the dead you go to haiti they got something called the gray day festival you know it's all like acknowledging death why not talk about it why sweep it under the rug why is that something that shouldn't be discussed at the kitchen table the dinner table in fact we're going to invite the ancestors to be at the dinner table with us because once you realize that you don't die you have a more liberated life you're going to live more because that lack of fear of not wanting to do things not wanting to step out of your comfort zone just some of the simple i'll say simple let me not tell you like because it's very some people can't leave their house yeah let alone stand on the stage and speak to people let alone you know like you know like it is challenging so like whatever your challenges may be you know i'm saying but you want the death of that on the when i'm dealing with deaths of people like darren you're into this death stuff and you promote death and you've got to be careful around i'm like nah bro i'm bringing life in like this is life that i'm talking about man like this is life that we're breathing in and on that note i'll just end with this i always recommend people to check out the movie big fish with eerie mcgregor children's bar you can sit down watch it with the family man sunday i'm saying whatever day of the week sit down watch big fish you're a mcgregor and you'll get it man and the whole premise is that you know as a child he finds out how he dies when he realizes all these challenges that he's being faced and not the way that he dies he's prepared to face them and then it makes you realize all the things that you don't face because you're worried about what people want to say this that and the other but if you realize that wasn't going to be the case people don't care as much as you think they care you know i'll say they don't care that you're going gray they don't care that you're going bald they don't care because they're going gray they're going bald you know

59:54 Uyi like it's like oh we're all going through it darren it's been amazing we've been chatting for just under two hours wow yeah time has flown yeah time has flown so if we want to reach out to you

01:00:07 Darren if we want to learn more where do we find you straightforward on the internet man darren labaron.com that's d-a-r-r-e-n-l-e-b-a-r-o-n.com if you go there you can find out everything as far as you know the social medias instagram facebook youtube patreon whatever you've got access to you type that name in i think i'm the only one who's got that name so if not google corrects it and sends you somewhere there to those pages that you're after you can just find out more about the work you know workshops talks seminars retreats you name it you know we've got stuff happening so

01:00:41 Uyi always appreciate the support cool man i appreciate you coming down it's been an amazing chat we've already unpacked a lot i feel like there's even more to unpack maybe for another time but thank you sure thanks for the invitation very much okay guys that was darren labaron as always there is more details about my guests in the show notes and if you like this episode i really recommend you listen to episode 31 headspace with nars neuro and episode 1 let's talk therapy with judy harrison all right see you in a couple weeks